Illinois hero Stephen Douglas managed slaves

byron ed

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...Men in Douglas' time didn't cringe at the thought of some public figure having a connection to slavery. Half of the Cabinet were slaveowners and a large percentage of Congress was too...
Managing a 150-slave southern plantation is a bit more than a mere connection. I've read a lot of accounts indicating standards and mores of the time -- at least in Illinois -- and am fairly certain that many men in that state at least would find this extent of involvement in slavery cringable, if not elsewhere. Apparently some op-eds in newspapers of the time are an indication of that, if we can recover some of those.
 

Jim Klag

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Managing a 150-slave southern plantation is a bit more than a mere connection. I've read a lot of accounts indicating standards and mores of the time -- at least in Illinois -- and am fairly certain that many men in that state at least would find this extent of involvement in slavery cringable, if not elsewhere. Apparently some op-eds in newspapers of the time are an indication of that, if we can recover some of those.
IIRC, he didn't actually do much hands-on. He hired an on-site manager to handle the day-to-day stuff. I may be wrong. But, compared to the great planters that were in the government and were founders, it was a "mere connection." If Douglas was a hero of yours, I am surprised that this would come as a shock to you.
 

byron ed

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...Don't fall into the trap of saddling 19th century men with 21st century sensitivities...
Over time I've come to realize that's a truism; something that sounds eminently correct but not really based on anything. It's used most often to excuse pro-slavery actions despite a clear record of anti-slavery choices being available at the same time, which were just as representative of the mores of the people living at that time; what they were as likely to accept as moral or not. They were not a different species from us today, and most were raised in the same Judeo-Christian society that up until lately modern people were. The trap is in accepting the truism. Too easy.
 
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Jim Klag

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Over time I've come to realize that's a truism; something that sounds eminently correct but not really based on anything. It's used most often to excuse pro-slavery actions despite a clear record of anti-slavery choices being available, which are just as representative of the people living at that time and what they would accept as moral or not.
I'm not excusing anything. I merely state fact. In the 1850s a connection to slavery did not have the stigma that it has today except among the anti-slavery people. Some abolitionists still voted for slaveowners. A 21st century man would be shocked if he were dropped into 19th century America. Even abolitionists were racist. They wanted slaves freed but they didn't want them to be citizens or even neighbors. As far as your "anti-slavery choices" go, colonization after emancipation was probably the most popular. By our standards, 19th century Americans were not very nice people.
 

byron ed

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I'm not excusing anything. I merely state fact. In the 1850s a connection to slavery did not have the stigma that it has today except among the anti-slavery people. ..
... of which after 1850 there were many and we won't dismiss their significance in society at the time. Many folks did have a stigma against slavery (and being associated with slavery) and we won't misrepresent that. Not that I haven't heard the truism over and over. It just doesn't really wash once you do the work and delve into accounts from that time. Legacy Northern Church mission statements alone are an indication of that. Check the records in your own County.

Like cattle, some men then (as now) were prone to herd mentality. Our mistake is to assume that meant most men, when in fact, particularly in this Country, men resisted herd mentality. That's why both the Union and Confederate armies were rife with unsanctioned action and desertions. Like the civilian settler stock the soldiers derived from, many were free and independent thinkers compared to their old-world antecedents. That is what we will account for before claiming the truism "saddling 19th century men with 21st century sensitivities."

imho.
 

Jim Klag

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... of which after 1850 there were many and we won't dismiss their significance in society at the time. Many folks did have a stigma against slavery (and being associated with slavery) and we won't misrepresent that. Not that I haven't heard the truism over and over. It just doesn't really wash once you do the work and delve into accounts from that time. Legacy Northern Church mission statements alone are an indication of that. Check the records in your own County.

Like cattle, some men then (as now) were prone to herd mentality. Our mistake is to assume that meant most men, when in fact, particularly in this Country, men resisted herd mentality. That's why both the Union and Confederate armies were rife with unsanctioned action and desertions. Like the civilian settler stock the soldiers derived from, many were free and independent thinkers compared to their old-world antecedents. That is what we will account for before claiming the truism "saddling 19th century men with 21st century sensitivities."

imho.
You can stop right now assigning to me motives I don't have and trying to put words in my mouth. I am not now nor was I ever merely mouthing (or typing) truisms.
 

O' Be Joyful

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You see, my problem is that Douglas has been a historical hero of mine, so let me down easy.

According to the 2017 book “Wrestling With His Angel: The Political Life of Abraham Lincoln 1849-1856,” by Sidney Blumenthal, Douglas’ father-in-law, upon his death, deeded a 2,500-acre Mississippi plantation worked by 150 slaves to Douglas’ wife and her heirs. Douglas served as property manager for which he received 20 percent of its annual income.

When Douglas’ wife died in 1853, the book states, the cotton plantation was inherited by their two sons, while Douglas – known in Illinois as The Little Giant – continued as manager.

“It was a characteristically artful arrangement allowing Douglas to have it both ways, legally not to be a slave owner yet to profit from slavery,” the book states. “The Little Giant stood on the pedestal of the cotton kingdom – and above it.”


https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200807/...rk-for-frederick-douglass-not-stephen-douglas
 

byron ed

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...According to the 2017 book “Wrestling With His Angel: The Political Life of Abraham Lincoln 1849-1856,” by Sidney Blumenthal...

/QUOTE]

(the very reference and cite that started in the OP)
 

O' Be Joyful

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So you were aware of it before....why the previous puzzlement of his slave-master history?
 

byron ed

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So you were aware of it before....why the previous puzzlement of his slave-master history?
I was just made aware of it, so started the OP same day. Not puzzled about discovering Douglas' slave master history, rather highly disappointed in his level of involvement -- much more than merely accepting slavery in the spirit of compromise to save the Union, and a step beyond the common mores of the time (accepting or ignoring slavery).

Also a bit disappointed that the significance of Douglas' duplicity isn't more recognized here, but brushed off as if he were just another man in Antebellum times. No he wasn't. His political actions greatly affected the drift to war, and now to find that he had a rather more selfish motive than common references had ever alluded to. It's significant.
 
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Jim Klag

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Also a bit disappointed that the significance of Douglas' duplicity isn't more recognized here, but brushed off as if he were just another man in Antebellum times
It is very much appreciated here, meaning jggscivilwartalk. But our appreciation is based on our values, not the values of the mid-1800's. To his contemporaries, Douglas' first-hand connection to slavery was not as egregious a betrayal as we feel today. I'm sure there were folks who condemned his plantation management, but they were a minority.
 

jgoodguy

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No reason he should not remain a hero. Don't fall into the trap of saddling 19th century men with 21st century sensitivities. The reason it was not a big deal in his own time was that, except for radical anti-slavery folk, his management of his wife's plantation didn't bother people. After all, most of the heroes of the Revolution were somehow involved in slavery. A great many northern folk had some connection, however slight, to the peculiar institution - wives' families, other relatives as slaveholders, etc. Men in Douglas' time didn't cringe at the thought of some public figure having a connection to slavery. Half of the Cabinet were slaveowners and a large percentage of Congress was too.
Until mid Civil War, Slavery was a norm in the US. Even in Free States, fugitive slaves were most often returned. Slave produced goods traded and entire State economies dependent on slave labor.

Only when slave labor became a military asset needed for Southern victory did it become abhorrent.
 

jgoodguy

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I was not aware of it, but not an interest of mine either.
 

byron ed

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...Even in Free States, fugitive slaves were most often returned...
Very misleading. You've lumped all decades of U.S. slavery as if conditions for escape remained static since 1776, and you've omitted the necessary explanation that you can refer only to those fugitives that were caught (a requirement of being returned), not all fugitive slaves.

It's more relevant to the period most of us are interested in here to point out that by 1800, even in the free states, fugitive slaves were as likely to be successful as they were to be returned. This exact circumstance is was what drove the South to bulldog the Fugitive Slave Act. They considered it necessary to the survival of their system in a more mobile world. Horses and dogs could no longer get it done.

From the fugitive's standpoint, there were significantly-increased opportunities to escape via a vastly-expanded network of improved roads by 1800, with new canals and (steam) boat and train routes soon following. Also, there was a rising tide of anti-slavery sentiment and awareness in those areas of the Country they were escaping to, especially after 1850, as we know.
 
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jgoodguy

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Very misleading. You've lumped all decades of U.S. slavery as if conditions for escape remained static since 1776, and you've omitted the necessary explanation that you can refer only to those fugitives that were caught (a requirement of being returned), not all fugitive slaves.

It's more relevant to the period most of us are interested in here to point out that by 1800, even in the free states, fugitive slaves were as likely to be successful as they were to be returned. This exact circumstance is was what drove the South to bulldog the Fugitive Slave Act. They considered it necessary to the survival of their system in a more mobile world. Horses and dogs could no longer get it done.

From the fugitive's standpoint, there were significantly-increased opportunities to escape via a vastly-expanded network of improved roads by 1800, with new canals and (steam) boat and train routes soon following. Also, there was a rising tide of anti-slavery sentiment and awareness in those areas of the Country they were escaping to, especially after 1850, as we know.
On the other hand, I charged nothing.
 

O' Be Joyful

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and now taking down another statue of slavemaster Douglas at the IL Capitol at Springfield...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/architect-of-the-capitol-to-take-up-issue-of-douglas-statue/ar-BB189uDB

Am I to take from this that you object to this removal or that you may agree that it as the choice of the overall population of the entire Great state of Illinois to decide which figures grace the lawn of the their capitol?

Btw, I have been to Springfield and rubbed Abe's nose...for luck before I entered and after my exit. Today I would wear a mask and bring disinfectant wipes.
 

Jim Klag

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Am I to take from this that you object to this removal or that you may agree that it as the choice of the overall population of the entire Great state of Illinois to decide which figures grace the lawn of the their capitol?

Btw, I have been to Springfield and rubbed Abe's nose...for luck before I entered and after my exit. Today I would wear a mask and bring disinfectant wipes.
I love all the Licolniana in Springfield. A favorite place to visit.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I love all the Licolniana in Springfield. A favorite place to visit.
We also went to his law office and o/c their home as well. It was part of one of my "around the horn" history trips that first started in Chi-town--a family reunion and w/ side trips to Wrigley-ville cuz I timed it while the Reds were there--and circled back home. I always travel w/ a sense of history.
 
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