Confederate Coup...?

5fish

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In the summer of 1863, Gen. Lee during the months of May and June had his last opportunity to save the confederate nation. It involved not an engagement with the union forces but a test of wills.

Gen. Lee had a strategic plan for the confederacy that differed from Pres. Davis strategic plan. As it is known Pres. Davis want to fight a defensive war and break the resolve of the north to fight a prolong war. He also believe in trying to maintain the confederate nation's territorial integrity which led to leaving various military units scattered through out the south and being ineffective. He had other failed ideas as well but these two effected Gen. Lee and the south's ability to fight and maintain an effective war effort.

Gen. Lee as it is known wanted to take the fight to union's backyard. His plan was more bold then marching the AoNV into PA. He wanted bring the scatter units and brigades in SC. and NC. to central VA. under the command of Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard and send them toward OH. He knew the north would constrict it forces in the south to meet two southern intrusion into the north giving a breather to the south of union forces. He also knew if he could or Gen. Beauregard could engage union forces in the union's own backyard and win then maybe a European nation would come to their aid.

Pres. Davis first approved his plan but never implemented it in full. He was unwilling to give up his plan of defensive war and his false belief he was a military genus. He even shorted Gen. Lee almost a division for his raid into the north. Pres. Davis started the war and his strategic plan was going to lose it.

Gen. Lee knew Pres. Davis's strategic plan was failing and it was going to lose the war. Here is the moment of truth in the summer of 1863, Gen Lee could have save the confederate nation from it present path and death. Once he saw Pres. Davis refuse to follow his strategic plan and he lost the test of wills. He should have led a COUP DE TAT. Yes, a coup!

Gen. Lee could have rid the south of a useless civilian government and ended Pres. Davis failed strategic plan. He would have had total control of all military resources and he would have used them more effectively then Pres. Davis. Just think, what Gen. Lee could have done and become if he would have been so bold.

Gen Lee would not have become the Cincinnatus or Washington of his dreams but he would have become the Caesar and Napoleon of the America's.

Yes, semi-democratic south government needed to go and yes, a military reign was needed to replace it or at least a puppet civilian government. Gen. Lee by ending democracy could have saved the confederate nation but he failed to be so BOLD!


The south would have followed Bobby Lee!
 

Kirk's Raider's

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In the summer of 1863, Gen. Lee during the months of May and June had his last opportunity to save the confederate nation. It involved not an engagement with the union forces but a test of wills.

Gen. Lee had a strategic plan for the confederacy that differed from Pres. Davis strategic plan. As it is known Pres. Davis want to fight a defensive war and break the resolve of the north to fight a prolong war. He also believe in trying to maintain the confederate nation's territorial integrity which led to leaving various military units scattered through out the south and being ineffective. He had other failed ideas as well but these two effected Gen. Lee and the south's ability to fight and maintain an effective war effort.

Gen. Lee as it is known wanted to take the fight to union's backyard. His plan was more bold then marching the AoNV into PA. He wanted bring the scatter units and brigades in SC. and NC. to central VA. under the command of Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard and send them toward OH. He knew the north would constrict it forces in the south to meet two southern intrusion into the north giving a breather to the south of union forces. He also knew if he could or Gen. Beauregard could engage union forces in the union's own backyard and win then maybe a European nation would come to their aid.

Pres. Davis first approved his plan but never implemented it in full. He was unwilling to give up his plan of defensive war and his false belief he was a military genus. He even shorted Gen. Lee almost a division for his raid into the north. Pres. Davis started the war and his strategic plan was going to lose it.

Gen. Lee knew Pres. Davis's strategic plan was failing and it was going to lose the war. Here is the moment of truth in the summer of 1863, Gen Lee could have save the confederate nation from it present path and death. Once he saw Pres. Davis refuse to follow his strategic plan and he lost the test of wills. He should have led a COUP DE TAT. Yes, a coup!

Gen. Lee could have rid the south of a useless civilian government and ended Pres. Davis failed strategic plan. He would have had total control of all military resources and he would have used them more effectively then Pres. Davis. Just think, what Gen. Lee could have done and become if he would have been so bold.

Gen Lee would not have become the Cincinnatus or Washington of his dreams but he would have become the Caesar and Napoleon of the America's.

Yes, semi-democratic south government needed to go and yes, a military reign was needed to replace it or at least a puppet civilian government. Gen. Lee by ending democracy could have saved the confederate nation but he failed to be so BOLD!


The south would have followed Bobby Lee!
If butts and cocoanuts. We can't prove a hypothetical. Perhaps the Confederate troops would resent a coup. We can't know if a Confederate offensive in the North would be successful. All we know is that in actual fact all Confederate offensives in the North and border States failed.
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O' Be Joyful

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In the summer of 1863, Gen. Lee during the months of May and June had his last opportunity to save the confederate nation. It involved not an engagement with the union forces but a test of wills.

Gen. Lee had a strategic plan for the confederacy that differed from Pres. Davis strategic plan. As it is known Pres. Davis want to fight a defensive war and break the resolve of the north to fight a prolong war. He also believe in trying to maintain the confederate nation's territorial integrity which led to leaving various military units scattered through out the south and being ineffective. He had other failed ideas as well but these two effected Gen. Lee and the south's ability to fight and maintain an effective war effort.

Gen. Lee as it is known wanted to take the fight to union's backyard. His plan was more bold then marching the AoNV into PA. He wanted bring the scatter units and brigades in SC. and NC. to central VA. under the command of Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard and send them toward OH. He knew the north would constrict it forces in the south to meet two southern intrusion into the north giving a breather to the south of union forces. He also knew if he could or Gen. Beauregard could engage union forces in the union's own backyard and win then maybe a European nation would come to their aid.

Pres. Davis first approved his plan but never implemented it in full. He was unwilling to give up his plan of defensive war and his false belief he was a military genus. He even shorted Gen. Lee almost a division for his raid into the north. Pres. Davis started the war and his strategic plan was going to lose it.

Gen. Lee knew Pres. Davis's strategic plan was failing and it was going to lose the war. Here is the moment of truth in the summer of 1863, Gen Lee could have save the confederate nation from it present path and death. Once he saw Pres. Davis refuse to follow his strategic plan and he lost the test of wills. He should have led a COUP DE TAT. Yes, a coup!

Gen. Lee could have rid the south of a useless civilian government and ended Pres. Davis failed strategic plan. He would have had total control of all military resources and he would have used them more effectively then Pres. Davis. Just think, what Gen. Lee could have done and become if he would have been so bold.

Gen Lee would not have become the Cincinnatus or Washington of his dreams but he would have become the Caesar and Napoleon of the America's.

Yes, semi-democratic south government needed to go and yes, a military reign was needed to replace it or at least a puppet civilian government. Gen. Lee by ending democracy could have saved the confederate nation but he failed to be so BOLD!


The south would have followed Bobby Lee!

You need to e-mail Harry Turtledove. ;)
btw, I've read all of 'em.

https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Southern_Victory
 

5fish

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If butts and cocoanuts. We can't prove a hypothetical. Perhaps the Confederate troops would resent a coup. We can't know if a Confederate offensive in the North would be successful. All we know is that in actual fact all Confederate offensives in the North and border States failed.
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Yes, before Lee has total control of resources... This offense would have been supported completely...
 

Kirk's Raider's

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Yes, before Lee has total control of resources... This offense would have been supported completely...
Which is a completely hypothetical statement. We can't know something that never happened.
History is full of examples of the best laid military plans of mice and men going awry.
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5fish

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You need to e-mail Harry Turtledove. ;)
btw, I've read all of 'em.

https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Southern_Victory
I looked at the link I was surprised ... I have heard of Turtledove but I did realize he had so many books... You know about Eric Flint if you like alternative history because I see his books in the SciFi section ... Did Turtledove write more alternative books civil war history or only the one...
 

rittmeister

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I looked at the link I was surprised ... I have heard of Turtledove but I did realize he had so many books... You know about Eric Flint if you like alternative history because I see his books in the SciFi section ... Did Turtledove write more alternative books civil war history or only the one...
half a ton
 

Andersonh1

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In the summer of 1863, Gen. Lee during the months of May and June had his last opportunity to save the confederate nation. It involved not an engagement with the union forces but a test of wills.

Gen. Lee had a strategic plan for the confederacy that differed from Pres. Davis strategic plan. As it is known Pres. Davis want to fight a defensive war and break the resolve of the north to fight a prolong war. He also believe in trying to maintain the confederate nation's territorial integrity which led to leaving various military units scattered through out the south and being ineffective. He had other failed ideas as well but these two effected Gen. Lee and the south's ability to fight and maintain an effective war effort.

Gen. Lee as it is known wanted to take the fight to union's backyard. His plan was more bold then marching the AoNV into PA. He wanted bring the scatter units and brigades in SC. and NC. to central VA. under the command of Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard and send them toward OH. He knew the north would constrict it forces in the south to meet two southern intrusion into the north giving a breather to the south of union forces. He also knew if he could or Gen. Beauregard could engage union forces in the union's own backyard and win then maybe a European nation would come to their aid.

Pres. Davis first approved his plan but never implemented it in full. He was unwilling to give up his plan of defensive war and his false belief he was a military genus. He even shorted Gen. Lee almost a division for his raid into the north. Pres. Davis started the war and his strategic plan was going to lose it.

Gen. Lee knew Pres. Davis's strategic plan was failing and it was going to lose the war. Here is the moment of truth in the summer of 1863, Gen Lee could have save the confederate nation from it present path and death. Once he saw Pres. Davis refuse to follow his strategic plan and he lost the test of wills. He should have led a COUP DE TAT. Yes, a coup!

Gen. Lee could have rid the south of a useless civilian government and ended Pres. Davis failed strategic plan. He would have had total control of all military resources and he would have used them more effectively then Pres. Davis. Just think, what Gen. Lee could have done and become if he would have been so bold.

Gen Lee would not have become the Cincinnatus or Washington of his dreams but he would have become the Caesar and Napoleon of the America's.

Yes, semi-democratic south government needed to go and yes, a military reign was needed to replace it or at least a puppet civilian government. Gen. Lee by ending democracy could have saved the confederate nation but he failed to be so BOLD!


The south would have followed Bobby Lee!
The problem with this scenario is that both Lee and Davis were serious about Constitutional government, and Lee was always deferential to his civilian command. A coup with him in charge would never have happened.
 

5fish

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, and Lee was always deferential to his civilian command. A coup with him in charge would never have happened.
Everyone mention Lee was deferential to a civilian government but I figure other political and civilian figures would come to Lee demanding him to either lead the coup or support a coup by them. They would promise to support his plans of invading the North... He would be either the power on the throne or the power behind the throne... Davis vision was dangerously misguided and someone needed to step in a save the day...
 

5fish

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A coup with him in charge would never have happened.
I ask the members , guest, or anyone friendly to the "lost cause" would you rather have a CSA existing with a imperial president or the lifeless CSA that was still born ....
 

Kirk's Raider's

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Everyone mention Lee was deferential to a civilian government but I figure other political and civilian figures would come to Lee demanding him to either lead the coup or support a coup by them. They would promise to support his plans of invading the North... He would be either the power on the throne or the power behind the throne... Davis vision was dangerously misguided and someone needed to step in a save the day...
Yet that did not happen. There is absolutely no way to know if a military plan will work unless it is actually performed.
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5fish

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There is absolutely no way to know if a military plan will work unless it is actually performed.
Yes, It was obvious Davis was leading them down the wrong path... Lee wanted to be the Southern Cincinnatus so he should have made himself dictator like Cincinnatus was. Lee could have saved the Confederacy won the war and then stepdown like Cincinnatus... "What if History Scifi book"
 

O' Be Joyful

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Yes, It was obvious Davis was leading them down the wrong path... Lee wanted to be the Southern Cincinnatus so he should have made himself dictator like Cincinnatus was. Lee could have saved the Confederacy won the war and then stepdown like Cincinnatus... "What if History Scifi book"
IIRC, Cininnatus was granted authority by the Roman senate. Which he later laid down to once again to take up the plow.




The Kroger Co. is partnering with ArtWorks to return “Homage to Cincinnatus” to its original glory.

https://www.artworkscincinnati.org/cincinnatus-is-getting-a-facelift/
 
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O' Be Joyful

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The Return of Cincinnatus, an allegorical scene celebrating the Roman hero's return to his farm, painted ca. 1775.

The Society of the Cincinnati took its name from the ancient Roman hero Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, a hero of the Roman Republic. In the fifth century BC, the Roman Senate called on Cincinnatus to lead the army of the republic against foreign invaders and granted him dictatorial powers to deal with the crisis facing Rome. After leading the army to victory, he resigned his commission, returned power to the Senate, and retired to his farm, refusing rewards for serving the republic. For the classical world, Cincinnatus was the embodiment of civic virtue—characterized by a willingness to sacrifice private interest and private gain for the good of the public.


Cincinnatus and the characteristics he demonstrated—humility, unselfish personal sacrifice, commitment to the public welfare, and the subordination of the military to civilian rule—were admired and emulated by the leaders of the American Revolution. They believed that these characteristics were essential to the survival of republican government. George Washington, who refused to accept a salary for leading the Continental Army and conducted himself with humility and in strict subordination to the will of Congress, was widely celebrated as an American Cincinnatus. The founders of the Society referred to themselves as "Cincinnati"—a plural form of the name Cincinnatus—to indicate their commitment to the virtues of the Roman hero.


The city of Cincinnati, Ohio, also took its name from Cincinnatus and the Society. In 1790 Arthur St. Clair, governor of the Northwest Territory (which included present-day Ohio) and president of the State Society of the Cincinnati of Pennsylvania, gave the town its current name. The name Cincinnati honored the Society and its members, who settled in large numbers in the towns of the Northwest Territory.

https://www.societyofthecincinnati.org/about/name
 

Kirk's Raider's

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Yes, It was obvious Davis was leading them down the wrong path... Lee wanted to be the Southern Cincinnatus so he should have made himself dictator like Cincinnatus was. Lee could have saved the Confederacy won the war and then stepdown like Cincinnatus... "What if History Scifi book"
If ands butts and cocoanuts. I get there is a fantasy market for alternative history. I fully understand that the present day sucks in so many ways. I also get that the old days sucked to in many but not all regards I.e. California once had great hunting and fishing .
Unfortunately real history is a whole lot more complex and tragic I.e. Southern whites in 1861 were to stupid to have their own nation. If they want their own nation time is quickly running out as white folks become the minority in many Southern states and already are in Texas.
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Kirk's Raider's

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Pardon my correction, but the proper quote is: " If, ifs and buts were cherries and nuts, then everyday would be X-mas."

I am quoting from Rick an ex police officer from Vallejo, California who has a YouTube channel called " Think like a cop".
Rick sounds more like he is from Texas but a fair amount of California law enforcement officers at one time maybe not so much now we're Southern whites although former Los Angeles Mayor Tom Bradley was also from Texas and was a Captain in the LAPD definitely not white.
Point being lots of ways to skin a cat or describe a hypothetical question.
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