Are these Black Confederates? Why? or Why not?

[Al Mackey]

How about this man? Apart from the headline, added by the newspaper, this entire story consists of the discharge orders for a 68 year old black fifer. Enlisted May 1st, 1861, served a year, and honorably discharged from the Army of the Confederate States.

Macon Daily Telegraph July 28 1862

The confederacy didn't consider black musicians to be soldiers, so why should we?

 

[Al Mackey]

Yes, this is a black Confederate soldier because Confederate law says so. In fact, these laws indicate that anyone enlisted in the army was a soldier-

"The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, When transportation cannot be furnished in kind, the discharged soldier shall be entitled to receive 10 cents per mile in lieu of all traveling pay, subsistence, forage, and undrawn clothing, from the place of discharge to the place of his enlistment or enrollment, estimating the distance by the shortest mail route, and if there is no mail route, by the shortest practicable route. The foregoing to apply to all officers, non-commissioned officers, musicians, artificers, farriers, blacksmiths, and privates of volunteers, when disbanded, discharged, or mustered out of service of the Confederate States;" (May 21, 1861)

View attachment 306

Actually, confederate law said the opposite. Black musicians were by law a separate category from white soldiers who were musicians.

 

[Al Mackey]

Then we'll need to delete some from the 186,000 USCT known as "black" troops-

View attachment 308

Someone who is competent at analysis would see it is United States Colored Troops, not United States Black Troops.

 

[jgoodguy]

I take the position, that Black in the 19th century Confederacy was expressed by

I've always been under the impression words matter.

That "muster roll", says what at the top of it..? Confederate. It also specifically says, "Enrolled for Active Service", & "Mustered into Service".

I'll concede it doesn't say soldier. Though, I specifically use the word Confederate. Which he was.

But not the actual papers. Just a report of them.

 

[Andersonh1]

The confederacy didn't consider black musicians to be soldiers, so why should we?

I didn't ask if he was a soldier, even if the newspaper editor who wrote the headline did. I asked if he was a Confederate.

 

[Al Mackey]

I didn't ask if he was a soldier, even if the newspaper editor who wrote the headline did. I asked if he was a Confederate.

We don't really know because we don't have the context. All we have is one newspaper story.

 

[Tom]

They weren't considered enlisted soldiers by the confederacy, so why should we consider them to be enlisted soldiers?

Because his discharge paper says he was enlisted.

 

[Tom]

Someone who is competent at analysis would see it is United States Colored Troops, not United States Black Troops.

Since when have you not called them black?

Al Mackey:
"there were 180,000 to 200,000 black Union soldiers"
"200,000 blacks served in the Union Army and Navy"
"200,000 black soldiers"

 

[jgoodguy]

Since when have you not called them black?

Al Mackey:
"there were 180,000 to 200,000 black Union soldiers"
"200,000 blacks served in the Union Army and Navy"
"200,000 black soldiers"

How did a recruiter determine where to put a recruit?

 

[jgoodguy]

How about this man? Apart from the headline, added by the newspaper, this entire story consists of the discharge orders for a 68 year old black fifer. Enlisted May 1st, 1861, served a year, and honorably discharged from the Army of the Confederate States.

Macon Daily Telegraph July 28 1862

Is someone suggesting the CSA enlisted a 67 YO as a soldier and sent him off to a Camp of Instruction.

 

[dedej]

From the papers, the CSA recognized him as a recruit, the military paid him and honorably discharged him.
It is not known if he shot any Yankees or engaged any in combat with his musical instrument.
Welcome to the wild wild world of 'Black Confederates'.

It can be argued that blacks were not eligible for enlistment, but the same clause prohibits 45-year-olds. So where does that leave us? He is described not as black but dark complexion. So while he may qualify as a Confederate, is he a black one? Interesting enough he was a barber at enlistment and carried on the roll as a musician.

I can help with this. More than likely this man was a Free Person of Color and keyword FREE.

FPOC - Free Mulattos or Creoles -- were often Barbers -- they were very successful back then. It was one of the professions many FPOC thrived in -- and were allowed to work.

As a consequence, free persons of color, most often mulattoes, became slave owners and planters, businessmen and businesswomen, artisans, and shop owners. The occupations they entered included carpenters, joiners, shoemakers, tailors, coopers, painters, blacksmiths, plasterers, barbers, grocers, merchants, seamstresses, prostitutes, and boardinghouse keepers.​

--

"The growing threat from abolitionist propaganda influenced the Alabama legislature to prohibit manumission in 1860. Mobile County had a large population of free blacks, many of whom were mulatto descendants of the Spanish and French. These Creole Negroes were well educated due to special provisions of Mobile law. They were prosperous merchants, barbers, blacksmiths, carpenters, draymen, and coachmen. Many were descendants of Pierre Chastang who carried supplies for Andrew Jackson's troops during the War of 1812 and, when yellow fever spread in Mobile in 1819, cared for the sick and buried the dead. He was freed by popular subscription for these public services. When Chastang died in 1848, the Alabama Planter in Mobile lauded him as a "highly esteemed and respected" member of the community.'" In 1850 Mobile had 41 percent of the state's free blacks.
I am sure if more research was done -- it will be proven he was -- and more than likely did not identify as "Black." https://www.afrigeneas.com/forum-fpoc/index.cgi/md/read/id/876/sbj/alabama-free-people-of-color/

Another great read: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/33a7/2df33fc40f26d7b32063c19a5d466bdbc81b.pdf
​

 

[dedej]

Then we'll need to delete some from the 186,000 USCT known as "black" troops-

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Let me help you understand.

The "Black" Confederate was a Free Person of Color -- he was also mixed-race -- and not classified as "Black/Negro." Hell, he may have even been an enslaver too.

The "FORCED Enslaved Black Confederate " -- who enslaved -- maybe he was Negro/Black or Mulatto -- the point is he was enslaved -- and had no choice.

Versus:

And ENSLAVED person who fought for the USCT -- who were "mulatto" were also mixed race -- but ENSLAVED -- and made the decision to fight for their freedom.

The Free Person of Color you posted more than likely fought to maintain his "not Black"status -- and be seen as the good/helpful -- don't cause no problems - Free Person of Color.

 

[jgoodguy]

Let me help you understand.

The "Black" Confederate was a Free Person of Color -- he was also mixed-race -- and not classified as "Black/Negro." Hell, he may have even been an enslaver too.

The "FORCED Enslaved Black Confederate " -- who enslaved -- maybe he was Negro/Black or Mulatto -- the point is he was enslaved -- and had no choice.

Versus:

And ENSLAVED person who fought for the USCT -- who were "mulatto" were also mixed race -- but ENSLAVED -- and made the decision to fight for their freedom.

The Free Person of Color you posted more than likely fought to maintain his "not Black"status -- and be seen as the good/helpful -- don't cause no problems - Free Person of Color.

I have 139 names to research with CSRs or Pension papers to look at and a good sampling of terms.

 

[jgoodguy]

I can help with this. More than likely this man was a Free Person of Color and keyword FREE.

FPOC - Free Mulattos or Creoles -- were often Barbers -- they were very successful back then. It was one of the professions many FPOC thrived in -- and were allowed to work.

As a consequence, free persons of color, most often mulattoes, became slave owners and planters, businessmen and businesswomen, artisans, and shop owners. The occupations they entered included carpenters, joiners, shoemakers, tailors, coopers, painters, blacksmiths, plasterers, barbers, grocers, merchants, seamstresses, prostitutes, and boardinghouse keepers.​

--

"The growing threat from abolitionist propaganda influenced the Alabama legislature to prohibit manumission in 1860. Mobile County had a large population of free blacks, many of whom were mulatto descendants of the Spanish and French. These Creole Negroes were well educated due to special provisions of Mobile law. They were prosperous merchants, barbers, blacksmiths, carpenters, draymen, and coachmen. Many were descendants of Pierre Chastang who carried supplies for Andrew Jackson's troops during the War of 1812 and, when yellow fever spread in Mobile in 1819, cared for the sick and buried the dead. He was freed by popular subscription for these public services. When Chastang died in 1848, the Alabama Planter in Mobile lauded him as a "highly esteemed and respected" member of the community.'" In 1850 Mobile had 41 percent of the state's free blacks.
I am sure if more research was done -- it will be proven he was -- and more than likely did not identify as "Black." https://www.afrigeneas.com/forum-fpoc/index.cgi/md/read/id/876/sbj/alabama-free-people-of-color/

Another great read: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/33a7/2df33fc40f26d7b32063c19a5d466bdbc81b.pdf
​

Good info. The Lousiana Creoles and Free Persons of color are a similar case.

 

[Al Mackey]

Because his discharge paper says he was enlisted.

Some people who are ignorant of the laws the confederacy passed might think that means he was a soldier. The confederacy didn't see it that way.

 

[Al Mackey]

Since when have you not called them black?

Al Mackey:
"there were 180,000 to 200,000 black Union soldiers"
"200,000 blacks served in the Union Army and Navy"
"200,000 black soldiers"

Those who understand what they're talking about understand that what matters is what the United States called them: United States Colored Troops.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

carried on the roll as a musician.

Bugle calls can be a deadly indication of inevitably, just ask John Ford.

 

[jgoodguy]

Number 2.
Whittle Walter Private Mulatto B Co. VA 4th Cavalry Note: Barber And Musician

 

[jgoodguy]

Yes, I'm aware of how they classed race back in the 1860s and calling them all "black" is by modern definition. My point was that many now refer to the USCT as black troops. I bet you have too.

Is this an assertion that "Black Confederate" is presentism modernism unrelated to events in the 1860s?

This article uses colored, black and sable interchangeable, suggesting that while 'black' is not used, other words meaning black are.

Information about African-Americans serving in the Confederate Army in Richmond, VA during the Civil War.
Richmond Enquirer 3/23/1865; description of the Winder-Jackson Battalion's parade at Capitol square; call for Richmond ladies to produce a flag for this unit

From the Richmond Enquirer, 3/23/1865
THE CORPS D’AFRIQUE. – The appearance of the battalion of colored troops on the Square, yesterday afternoon, attracted thousands of our citizens to the spot, all eager to catch a glimpse of the sable soldiers. The bearing of the negroes elicited universal commendation. While on the Square, they went through the manual of arms in a manner which would have done credit to veteran soldiers, while the evolutions of the line were executed with promptness and precision. As an appropriate recognition of their promptness in forming the first battalion of colored troops in the Confederacy, we suggest to the ladies of Richmond the propriety of presenting the battalion with an appropriate banner.
​

From this paragraph, we see colored, sable and negro used interchangeably. Sable and negro both mean 'black'.

A spot check of newspapers up until 1865 finds
18310 results containing “black man” link
13874 results containing “black men” link
32184 results using "Black" If there is a "Black Confederate" then they must appear black.

1971 results containing “free man of color” Link
801 results containing “free men of color” Link
2772 results for the free man of color.
It appears that the preponderance of evidence is that black in antebellum times meant black.