let's talk about gun control.

jgoodguy

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The NRA magazines each month have a list of crimes stopped by armed citizens. The NRA quotes a Sociology Professor who has conducted studies to show armed citizens stop more crimes the police.
On the other hand some cities that have very permissive laws in carrying firearms such has New Orleans and St.Louus have higher violent crime then cites that don't such has NYC and Los Angeles. Then again some cities such has Baltimore which have strict gun carrying laws have a very high crime rate. So lots of factors.
Kirk's Raider's
None of which matters do it? The NRA got in bed with the Russians and anything they say now is corrupted by that. There are outfits listing gun stats https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ in opposition to the NRA. I used could say that the likelihood of being in a mass shooting is less than hit by lightning, now I am working my way toward swimming pool deaths, but voters can avoid lighting and swimming pools, but not a crazy with a gun. NRA and the GOP used to say thoughts and prayers to soothe things until a batch of teenagers from Florida made fools of them. Now there is fear.

Gun rights/control is literally how much blood are US voters willing to allow for the 2nd amendment. All rights are a cost v benefit of that right to society in the minds of voters. Run rights were liberalized because voters saw a benefit for personal protection, then the worm turned. So how much blood and fear is needed before a majority turns on a minority's right.


Gun Sales down.
Why Are Gun Sales Falling? - Bloomberg
Gun maker stocks benefit after mass shootings, right? Not anymore
Thanks To 'Trump Slump,' Shops Have More Guns Than Buyers
"The gun manufacturers ramped up production," he says. "They figured this is it – the motherlode we are gonna get another one just like we did the Obama surge. We are gonna get a Hillary surge. It didn't happen."

"So you put those two together, you have a 40 percent increase in production and a 20 percent decrease in demand and you have sliding prices and you also have people buying guns who say 'I've had enough now, I've bought enough guns,' so the market has gone down because of that."
It's not stats. I can quote stats that gun control laws are ineffective and stupid until the cows come home and there are no cows near me, but stats don't really count when folks fear. The NRA screwed up, the GOP is fearing that association with the NRA is icky, gun makers in financial trouble along with gun sellers. Not a good sign for run rights.
 

Viper21

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Sorry, but that's nonsense. Property taxes are not rent. I am sorry to say it, but it's an idiotic claim. Taxes are what we pay to the government in order to have the services we as a society require, such as police, fire department, education, libraries, and other services.
Like I said, don't pay your property taxes, & see how long you "own" your home. You'll skate for awhile but eventually, you'll be kicked out of your house, & it will be seized by the government. Regardless of whether or not you have a mortgage, or "own" it free & clear.

I'm well aware of what real estate taxes pay for. Though, I live in a part of the county that uses very little of the services you mention. Police: As stated earlier, 30 minutes out (average). Simply, investigators, & after the fact. Fire Dept: 100% Volunteer. Library: Pretty much obsolete anymore though, the tiny town (pop less than 400) closest to where I live has one. Roads are maintained by the State though, I live on a private road with no services. All maintenance, & plowing is paid for privately. No mail delivery either.

Having said that, I don't even mind the Real Estate Taxes that much. The one that burns my rear is the annual "Personal Property Tax" imposed by my county. It is literally, 4.25% of the value of your personal property, which is generally speaking, vehicles, trailers, toys, etc...

My county has fairly reasonable Real Estate Taxes when compared to urban areas, especially large urban areas. Though that is deceptive when personal property tax is added to the equation.
 

Viper21

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None of which matters do it? The NRA got in bed with the Russians and anything they say now is corrupted by that. There are outfits listing gun stats https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ in opposition to the NRA. I used could say that the likelihood of being in a mass shooting is less than hit by lightning, now I am working my way toward swimming pool deaths, but voters can avoid lighting and swimming pools, but not a crazy with a gun. NRA and the GOP used to say thoughts and prayers to soothe things until a batch of teenagers from Florida made fools of them. Now there is fear.
More people are hit by lightning than killed in a mass shooting, annually. Depending on the source, lightning strikes, hit between 500-1,000 people per year.

Gun rights/control is literally how much blood are US voters willing to allow for the 2nd amendment. All rights are a cost v benefit of that right to society in the minds of voters. Run rights were liberalized because voters saw a benefit for personal protection, then the worm turned. So how much blood and fear is needed before a majority turns on a minority's right.


Gun Sales down.
Why Are Gun Sales Falling? - Bloomberg
Gun maker stocks benefit after mass shootings, right? Not anymore
Thanks To 'Trump Slump,' Shops Have More Guns Than Buyers
"The gun manufacturers ramped up production," he says. "They figured this is it – the motherlode we are gonna get another one just like we did the Obama surge. We are gonna get a Hillary surge. It didn't happen."

"So you put those two together, you have a 40 percent increase in production and a 20 percent decrease in demand and you have sliding prices and you also have people buying guns who say 'I've had enough now, I've bought enough guns,' so the market has gone down because of that."
It's not stats. I can quote stats that gun control laws are ineffective and stupid until the cows come home and there are no cows near me, but stats don't really count when folks fear. The NRA screwed up, the GOP is fearing that association with the NRA is icky, gun makers in financial trouble along with gun sellers. Not a good sign for run rights.
People fear all kinds of things. Some rational, some irrational. The decision as to which is which, is subjective.

I fear the most vulnerable in our country being helpless. Firearms are the great equalizer. Without them, only the physically dominant will have control. People living in rural areas, & the elderly are especially vulnerable to evil doers. Much more so, if they aren't able to arm themselves.

The sad reality is, there are some bad people in our world. I believe everyone should be able to protect themselves from them, if they so desire.
 

jgoodguy

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More people are hit by lightning than killed in a mass shooting, annually. Depending on the source, lightning strikes, hit between 500-1,000 people per year.
I'd check stats before dragging before my bleary eyes. Looks like in 2018 353 more folks died in mass shootings than lighting or 19 mass shooting deaths to every lightening deaths.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit that tracks shootings in the US, 373 people died from mass shootings in 2018 and 1,346 others were injured.

In 2018 there were 20 direct lightning fatalities, up from 16 in 2017 which was lowest since record-keeping began in 1941. From 2009 to 2018 on average 27 people died each year from lightning strikes in the United States, according to the National Weather Service.

Swimming pools still lead for now in 2018 alone there was 2,077 Drownings. We got that for a while.
People fear all kinds of things. Some rational, some irrational. The decision as to which is which, is subjective.
Democracy is a bitch.
I fear the most vulnerable in our country being helpless. Firearms are the great equalizer. Without them, only the physically dominant will have control. People living in rural areas, & the elderly are especially vulnerable to evil doers. Much more so, if they aren't able to arm themselves.
Perhaps or maybe some folks use guns to intimidate. Used to be that the word was that an armed society was a polite one. That seems to have fallen out of style.
The sad reality is, there are some bad people in our world. I believe everyone should be able to protect themselves from them, if they so desire.
Bad folks will simply buy badder guns.
 

Viper21

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I'd check stats before dragging before my bleary eyes. Looks like in 2018 353 more folks died in mass shootings than lighting or 19 mass shooting deaths to every lightening deaths.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit that tracks shootings in the US, 373 people died from mass shootings in 2018 and 1,346 others were injured.

In 2018 there were 20 direct lightning fatalities, up from 16 in 2017 which was lowest since record-keeping began in 1941. From 2009 to 2018 on average 27 people died each year from lightning strikes in the United States, according to the National Weather Service.

Swimming pools still lead for now in 2018 alone there was 2,077 Drownings. We got that for a while.​

You said:

I used could say that the likelihood of being in a mass shooting is less than hit by lightning,
More people are hit by lightning every year, than have been killed in mass shootings the last 30 years.

Perhaps you missed this data:

A database of mass shootings compiled by Mother Jones going back to 1982 counts 114 such incidents in which at least three people were killed, not including the gunman. In that time, 932 people have been killed and 1,406 wounded, including the numbers from the El Paso and Dayton incidents. The following chart visualizes each mass shooting in terms of deaths and injuries. TIME has examined each incident and slightly adjusted some values as the death toll and number of injured has been clarified over time.

https://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/

932 people have been killed in the last 37 years, in "mass shootings".

The source you provided is including many more incidents than what is typically defined as, "mass shootings". Plenty of the incidents in your source involved 0 fatalities.​
Democracy is a bitch.
Can be for sure...
 

jgoodguy

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You said:


More people are hit by lightning every year, than have been killed in mass shootings the last 30 years.

Perhaps you missed this data:

A database of mass shootings compiled by Mother Jones going back to 1982 counts 114 such incidents in which at least three people were killed, not including the gunman. In that time, 932 people have been killed and 1,406 wounded, including the numbers from the El Paso and Dayton incidents. The following chart visualizes each mass shooting in terms of deaths and injuries. TIME has examined each incident and slightly adjusted some values as the death toll and number of injured has been clarified over time.

https://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/

932 people have been killed in the last 37 years, in "mass shootings".

The source you provided is including many more incidents than what is typically defined as, "mass shootings". Plenty of the incidents in your source involved 0 fatalities.​

Can be for sure...
Mass shooting is in the eye of the beholder, but I'd forgo lighting strikes for swimming pool fatalities.
 

5fish

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The funny thing I have learned you can not reason with gun nuts... They
The NRA magazines each month have a list of crimes stopped by armed citizens. The NRA quotes a Sociology Professor who has conducted studies to show armed citizens stop more crimes the police.
On the other hand some cities that have very permissive laws in carrying firearms such has New Orleans and St.Louus have higher violent crime then cites that don't such has NYC and Los Angeles. Then again some cities such has Baltimore which have strict gun carrying laws have a very high crime rate. So lots of factors.
Kirk's Raider's
ITs Propaganda @Kirk's Raider's ... Dickey amendment can not fund gun violence research and took money away to punish the CDC for even trying to research on gun violence... from wiki... The NRA has tied the government's hands-on learning the truth about gun violence...

The Dickey Amendment is a provision first inserted as a rider into the 1996 United States federal government omnibus spending bill which mandated that "none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control."[1] In the same spending bill, Congress earmarked $2.6 million from the CDC's budget, the exact amount that had previously been allocated to the agency for firearms research the previous year, for traumatic brain injury-related research.[2]

The amendment was lobbied for by the National Rifle Association (NRA). The amendment is named after its author Jay Dickey, a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives from Arkansas.[2] Although not an explicit ban on gun research, the Dickey Amendment's vagueness has since blocked the CDC from funding studies on gun violence, for fear that the CDC would be financially penalized; as a result, the amendment is sometimes referred to as a ban on CDC-funded gun research.[


Can gun manufacturers be sued... NO!!!... the NRA saw the two big mistakes done by the cigarette companies and have had laws past so they do not fall, victim, to their evil ways as the cigarette companies did in the 1990s...

The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law which protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of consumer products is held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901-790

If the government does not do research on gun violence then there will be on information to either shame or sue the gun manufacturers and to ensure no information about the industry get in the court records. The government gave them a get out of a liability-free card...

The cigarette industry fell victim to government research and the courts and the NRA was not going to allow it to happen to them...


 

Al Mackey

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Like I said, don't pay your property taxes, & see how long you "own" your home. You'll skate for awhile but eventually, you'll be kicked out of your house, & it will be seized by the government. Regardless of whether or not you have a mortgage, or "own" it free & clear.

I'm well aware of what real estate taxes pay for. Though, I live in a part of the county that uses very little of the services you mention. Police: As stated earlier, 30 minutes out (average). Simply, investigators, & after the fact. Fire Dept: 100% Volunteer. Library: Pretty much obsolete anymore though, the tiny town (pop less than 400) closest to where I live has one. Roads are maintained by the State though, I live on a private road with no services. All maintenance, & plowing is paid for privately. No mail delivery either.

Having said that, I don't even mind the Real Estate Taxes that much. The one that burns my rear is the annual "Personal Property Tax" imposed by my county. It is literally, 4.25% of the value of your personal property, which is generally speaking, vehicles, trailers, toys, etc...

My county has fairly reasonable Real Estate Taxes when compared to urban areas, especially large urban areas. Though that is deceptive when personal property tax is added to the equation.
As residents, we pay taxes. If you don't pay taxes, then the government gets its money in other ways. The Constitution provides that you can't lose your property without due process.

Do your "100% volunteer" fire department volunteers provide their own gear? Did they all chip in to buy the fire engines? Do they chip in to buy replacement parts to keep them running?

I lived in Virginia a good chunk of time, so I know all about the "sticker state" and its personal property taxes. "Whaddya mean I have to pay a tax on my car? I already paid the sales tax!" We all hate to pay for the government services we don't want to be without.
 

Al Mackey

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Thank you to the staff for changing the name of the thread.
 
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5fish

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Spare me the emotional rant.
I did not understand this but you need to spare me NRA propaganda, bullet points, and tropes... Chicago is a trope all the guns used there are imported from states like Indiana which are everyone have a gun and take it across state lines ... doing NRA bidding...

I'm simply pointing out the selective outrage
Selective outrage another NRA trope... Selective outrage is a good thing remember the 1980's MAD... they shamed drinkers and public and got laws passed so drunk driving was tried like a true-crime it was... have cut drunk driving death by half and towns with Uber/Lyft have reduced Drunk driving arrest another 20plus percent... once AI cars come online in the next 30 years Drunk driving deaths will go away... so what will the NRA use as their new trope ...

Total Traffic And Alcohol-Impaired Crash Fatalities, 1985-2017

link: https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-alcohol-impaired-driving

Selective outrage on Smoking was another one where again shaming the industry and public smoking has to lead to a drop in smoking since the 1970s... in the 1990's passing no public smoking and being sued by the states... My point is you bashing these other ills is a false flag operation by the NRA... they have been addressed by society and change happen. Now it is gun for selective outrage on guns to end their terror on society... All this selective outrage was fueled by government research and the civil lawsuits in the courts... Now you know why the NRA had those two laws passed...

Link:https://news.gallup.com/poll/109048/us-smoking-rate-still-coming-down.aspx

 

5fish

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Gun rights/control is literally how much blood are US voters willing to allow for the 2nd amendment.
These are true words....

I will tell you all a private tale for @Andersonh1 ... I have never owned a gun my brother always owned the guns... I have had guns pulled on me four times time maybe five and shot at twice.. one time 5rounds...

Now how did the 2 amendment help me to keep me free... It almost put me in the ground and I bet two of those four guys that held guns at me were under 21...

So what NRA trope are you going to throw at me to justify them pulling a gun on me and next shooting at me an unarmed person...

I want to to know to how the 2 amendment worked for me...
 

Andersonh1

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My name was invoked, but I don't remember participating in this thread.... ?
 

jgoodguy

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No problem, I even checked back through all four pages to make sure it wasn't one of those transplanted threads from elsewhere that I commented in years ago and had forgotten about. :D
Hmmmm a unique marketing ploy. I had not thought about that.
 

jgoodguy

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These are true words....

I will tell you all a private tale for @Andersonh1 ... I have never owned a gun my brother always owned the guns... I have had guns pulled on me four times time maybe five and shot at twice.. one time 5rounds...

Now how did the 2 amendment help me to keep me free... It almost put me in the ground and I bet two of those four guys that held guns at me were under 21...

So what NRA trope are you going to throw at me to justify them pulling a gun on me and next shooting at me an unarmed person...

I want to to know to how the 2 amendment worked for me...
Sorry, but the mere mention of NRA aggravates my psoriasis. I'll dab on coal tar and get back to this.
 

Kirk's Raider's

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The funny thing I have learned you can not reason with gun nuts... They


ITs Propaganda @Kirk's Raider's ... Dickey amendment can not fund gun violence research and took money away to punish the CDC for even trying to research on gun violence... from wiki... The NRA has tied the government's hands-on learning the truth about gun violence...

The Dickey Amendment is a provision first inserted as a rider into the 1996 United States federal government omnibus spending bill which mandated that "none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control."[1] In the same spending bill, Congress earmarked $2.6 million from the CDC's budget, the exact amount that had previously been allocated to the agency for firearms research the previous year, for traumatic brain injury-related research.[2]

The amendment was lobbied for by the National Rifle Association (NRA). The amendment is named after its author Jay Dickey, a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives from Arkansas.[2] Although not an explicit ban on gun research, the Dickey Amendment's vagueness has since blocked the CDC from funding studies on gun violence, for fear that the CDC would be financially penalized; as a result, the amendment is sometimes referred to as a ban on CDC-funded gun research.[


Can gun manufacturers be sued... NO!!!... the NRA saw the two big mistakes done by the cigarette companies and have had laws past so they do not fall, victim, to their evil ways as the cigarette companies did in the 1990s...

The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law which protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S.-based manufacturer of consumer products is held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901-790

If the government does not do research on gun violence then there will be on information to either shame or sue the gun manufacturers and to ensure no information about the industry get in the court records. The government gave them a get out of a liability-free card...

The cigarette industry fell victim to government research and the courts and the NRA was not going to allow it to happen to them...


My point was simply that armed citizens have deterred many criminal acts in the United States and elsewhere such has Brazil and South Africa.
The old saying when seconds count the police are only minutes away should always be kept in mind .
I can see an argument that assault rifles should be banned as they were specifically designed originally by the Wehrmacht for urban warfare based in their extensive at Stalingrad.
However semi automatic handguns are a different story.
Either way if we did outlaw firearms they will still be easily smuggled into the US and or manufactured in clandestine machine shops in the US.
Kirk's Raider's
 

Viper21

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These are true words....

I will tell you all a private tale for @Andersonh1 ... I have never owned a gun my brother always owned the guns... I have had guns pulled on me four times time maybe five and shot at twice.. one time 5rounds...

Now how did the 2 amendment help me to keep me free... It almost put me in the ground and I bet two of those four guys that held guns at me were under 21...

So what NRA trope are you going to throw at me to justify them pulling a gun on me and next shooting at me an unarmed person...

I want to to know to how the 2 amendment worked for me...
Impossible to advise without significantly more information about the incident you've referenced.

Although I will say, disarming, or further restricting law abiding citizens, wont stop criminals from doing what criminals do. The dirt bags murdering folks in plenty of our big cities on a regular basis, don't care about gun laws at all. Plenty of em, don't care about any laws. Making more laws won't deter their behavior. What they are doing, is already illegal.
 

jgoodguy

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Sorry, but the mere mention of NRA aggravates my psoriasis. I'll dab on coal tar and get back to this.
Back.
The deal is that I am very conflicted about gun control. It is generally ineffective and interferes with personal rights according to the libertarian angel on my right shoulder. The liberal angel on my left should is concerned with the human cost and damage. They fight a lot. The only effective gun control is a draconian one at the national level fraught with all sorts of civil liberty abuses. There is simply no good solution. There are too many guns. There are a lot of bandaid solutions that might work to some extent. It will be interesting times to live in.

The least intrusive is the same approach as smoking, make gun ownership a medical issue. Put on stickers like this gun may kill you or someone else. Every doctor's exam asks about firearms. And so on. Ads on gun safety on Entertainment channels.

I think the do nothing train has already left the station.
 

Al Mackey

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Impossible to advise without significantly more information about the incident you've referenced.

Although I will say, disarming, or further restricting law abiding citizens, wont stop criminals from doing what criminals do. The dirt bags murdering folks in plenty of our big cities on a regular basis, don't care about gun laws at all. Plenty of em, don't care about any laws. Making more laws won't deter their behavior. What they are doing, is already illegal.
Well, not that I am advocating this, but if all sales of firearms were banned, and if firearms were confiscated, then the dirt bags would find it extremely difficult to get firearms. Again, I am not advocating this, just showing an extremely strict gun ban would have a positive effect on gun deaths.
 
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