Other Segregated militaries and challenges of integration

[Kirk's Raider's]

if you asre talking about me, i didn't do that. this thread is about segregated military - if some tribe for whatever reason decides to help a foreign war effort they probably got their reasons. calling them cia henchmen is not necessarily unfriendly to them - it's unfriendly to the cia (and maybe the usa), though.

i also don't believe for a second that their young men decided that.

the hmong as everybody else have to make some decissions if the big boys decide they need a war in the vicinity. they decided their best chance was with the cia - history says the were wrong (just like the kurds).

on the other hand, talking 'nam would be off-topic to this thread - we'd need a new one

No you didn't it was another poster @w

The Hmong were irregulars more militias than an army. They attacked other local mountain tribes as much as they attacked the commies...

Here is the Hmong story as they fled Laos and had to fight for help from America, which at first would not acknowledge their plight...

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-worker-helped-bring-the-hmong-to-america

@rittmeister its the poster

The Hmong were irregulars more militias than an army. They attacked other local mountain tribes as much as they attacked the commies...

Here is the Hmong story as they fled Laos and had to fight for help from America, which at first would not acknowledge their plight...

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-worker-helped-bring-the-hmong-to-america

@rittmeister go to the top of this post for the name of the poster.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

The Hmong were irregulars more militias than an army. They attacked other local mountain tribes as much as they attacked the commies...

Here is the Hmong story as they fled Laos and had to fight for help from America, which at first would not acknowledge their plight...

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-worker-helped-bring-the-hmong-to-america

@5fish
The classic Mike Wallace has a Sixty Minutes segment on the Secret Army. Google "Sixty Minutes our secret war in Laos.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[rittmeister]

No you didn't it was another poster @w

@rittmeister its the poster

@rittmeister go to the top of this post for the name of the poster.
Kirk's Raider's

can't see any insult there either - they had their reasons for what they did and it would be ridiculuos to think those were the same as the us' - if someone joins a foreign war effort it's to be expected they do it with a side of settling their own scores, isn't it (especially if you get all the fancy tools in the process)?

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

can't see any insult there either - they had their reasons for what they did and it would be ridiculuos to think those were the same as the us' - if someone joins a foreign war effort it's to be expected they do it with a side of settling their own scores, isn't it (especially if you get all the fancy tools in the process)?

Let me put this very simply if our mutual friend @wherkatzler visited the US and called a former member of the Secret Army or CIDG a looser said poster has an excellent chance of suffering at a minimum severe physical pain .
Kirk's Raider's

 

[5fish]

@5fish
The classic Mike Wallace has a Sixty Minutes segment on the Secret Army. Google "Sixty Minutes our secret war in Laos.
Kirk's Raider's

Yellow rain - Wikipedia

The gas they used against them... CS gas...

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

our mutual friend @wherkatzler visited the US and called a former member of the Secret Army or CIDG a looser said poster has an excellent chance of suffering at a minimum severe physical pain .
Kirk's Raider's

who? If You mean me, my thoughtwas: that the special forces are segregated from the losers not that they are the segregated losers

by the way a Werkatze would be a a Wercat a We(h)rkatzler might be the human normal form of that Wercat

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

who? If You mean me, my thoughtwas: that the special forces are segregated from the losers not that they are the segregated losers

by the way a Werkatze would be a a Wercat a We(h)rkatzler might be the human normal form of that Wercat

Special Forces were never segregated from " the losers"". If you actually studied the US Special Force's history you will find that they are essentially a copy of what the Soviet Union did in WW2 which consisted of parachuting specially trained army officers behind Axis lines in the Soviet Union to organize,train and coordinate air supply to anti Axis Partisans. The SAS did the same in France prior to D-DAY. It has nothing to do with regular troops being loser's.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

segreated as in the losers weren't special forces

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

segreated as in the losers weren't special forces

Depends what does one mean by " losers".
The Vietnamese juvenile delinquents that Robin Moore referenced would be losers who were coerced into a Special Force's A-Team as "striker's". Khmer bandits who joined A-Teams would be losers .
Definitely the Hmong were losers has they lost many lives and had to flee with nothing to live in refuge camps in Thailand and then come to the US where many fell into poverty,crime and drugs and alcoholism. Not all Hmong but more then a few.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

At least two movies were produced based on Special Force's in Vietnam.
The most famous one is the 1968 "Green Berets" produced ,directed and staring John Wayne. It also stars George Taki from "Star Trek" Frank Berry from "Mayberry RFD" ,Jack Soo (sp?)from future TV Show "Barney Miller".
How historically accurate is the "Green Berets" is definitely an open question.
If Charlie's Angels is an accurate depiction of 1970s era private detectives then yes the Green Berets is historically accurate.
Also "Operation Dumbo Drop" by Disney Studios.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish ,
There is a very good article on history.net "the moutainyard rebellion". In 1964 some CIDG units mutinied and killed their Vietnamese Special Force's officers. It is a very complex event. I didn't know that 20 percent of South Vietnam'' population was non ethnic Vietnamese.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Would the Code Talkers be considered segregated?


https://americanindian.si.edu/education/codetalkers/html/chapter4.html

 

[O' Be Joyful]

we're not talking the laotian army here - you are comparing apples to horseradish

But they were not shrimp, although they were later dipped. (ref. to horseradish)

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

Would the Code Talkers be considered segregated?


https://americanindian.si.edu/education/codetalkers/html/chapter4.html

No because American Indians served in integrated units. The code talkers were a very specialized radio communications unit. The only troops segregated in the US military in WWII were African Americans and Japanese American's.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

The only troops segregated in the US military in WWII were African Americans and Japanese American's.
Kirk's Raider's

that makes a very low percentage I think? really??

btw please stop that silly '''''

Unlike the Japanese Americans, 75% of Chinese American soldiers served in non-segregated units.

that means 25% were racially segregated from whom? from the Japanese Americans? from the blacks? from the pink skins?

I showed before (not everybody got it) that segregation does not automatically mean by race phenotype, it may be by skill (totally normal) or by assumed skill (we are back to by phenotype)
not automatically = otherwise the term racial segregation would be total bullshit

acc that wikipedia piece The US Army was back to civil war procetures (You are not white You are support, oops we needed You in the front lines HURRAY, but now the war is over - You are not white)

Battle of the Bulge? when the front lines were overrun Blacks were accepte. needed there to stabilize that hammered to pieces white unites - HURRAY.
Well after the Ardennenoffensive went kaboom , it was all Blacks back to Your nonwhite unites (You are not white You know ...)


conclusion: Sir Your only is complete bias

 

[5fish]

How many times does it take to show you the link?I provided it many times.

I searched for over 2 hours to find a back-up source and had zero luck

I ask what about the Indian Kansas Home Guard. I assume they would be considered segregated units in the Union army.

A link:
Indian Home Guard (American Civil War) - Wikipedia

Here is a NPS site... https://www.nps.gov/fosc/learn/historyculture/forgotten-warriors.htm

Snip... Their fighting record...

The Indian Brigade

By fall of 1862, the Army had replaced most of the Indian officers with white noncommissioned officers from other units to instill army discipline into the Indian regiments. All three regiments were organized to form the Indian Brigade. Increased drilling improved their performance and in spring of 1863, brigade commander William A. Phillips remarked that he was satisfied that all three regiments had become effective fighting units.

Fully trained, the Union Army and the Indian regiments returned to the Indian Territory in greater numbers and fought in a series of pitched battles that would prove the mettle of the Home Guards. Some of these actions included:

• A battle at the site of old Fort Wayne, in which the Third Indian Home Guard helped to avert a flanking operation and pushed Confederate forces back seven miles, capturing their battle flag and four artillery pieces. (October 1862)
• The seizure of Fort Davis (near present-day Muskogee, OK), brought about by the actions of the Home Guards, who drove off the Confederate warriors stationed there and left the fort a smoldering ruins. (December 1862)
• The capture of Fort Gibson, during which the Second Indian Home Guard assisted in driving its Confederate defenders into the nearby Grand River, forcing the survivors to swim for their lives. (April 1863)
• Action at Cabin Creek, where soldiers of the Indian Home Guards helped to save a Union supply train from being captured by the forces of Stand Watie, the most persistent of the Confederate Indian commanders. (July 1863)
• Honey Springs, site of the most important Confederate installation in Indian Territory. Here, the Indian regiments, along with white soldiers and African-American troops, combined in a pitched battle called by some “the Gettysburg of Indian Territory.” Union forces combined to drive the Confederates from the area, liberated valuable stores of supplies, and most importantly, secured the Union Army a firm foothold in Indian Territory. (July 1863)

Snip... Total war...

Total Warfare

The actions of the Union Home Guards made it possible for their families to begin returning home, some of them doing so as early as spring of 1863. But the war was not over, fierce and determined opposition brought about two more years of fighting.

In early 1864, the Indian Home Guards went on a march through the southern part of the territory, engaging in Sherman like destruction, laying waste wherever they marched. Houses and other structures were destroyed, the economy ruined, and thousands became homeless refugees, as tribes continued fighting each other. Tensions continued until the very end of the war.

The determination of the Indian Home Guards contributed to ultimate Union victory. Individual soldiers felt a sense of pride, with “war whoops sounding up and down the line” when they rode into battle. They had been driven from the Indian Territory in rags, but they came back in Union blue, successful in their quest to return home.

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

I ask what about the Indian Kansas Home Guard. I assume they would be considered segregated units in the Union army.

A link:
Indian Home Guard (American Civil War) - Wikipedia

Here is a NPS site... https://www.nps.gov/fosc/learn/historyculture/forgotten-warriors.htm

Snip... Their fighting record...

The Indian Brigade

By fall of 1862, the Army had replaced most of the Indian officers with white noncommissioned officers from other units to instill army discipline into the Indian regiments. All three regiments were organized to form the Indian Brigade. Increased drilling improved their performance and in spring of 1863, brigade commander William A. Phillips remarked that he was satisfied that all three regiments had become effective fighting units.

Fully trained, the Union Army and the Indian regiments returned to the Indian Territory in greater numbers and fought in a series of pitched battles that would prove the mettle of the Home Guards. Some of these actions included:

• A battle at the site of old Fort Wayne, in which the Third Indian Home Guard helped to avert a flanking operation and pushed Confederate forces back seven miles, capturing their battle flag and four artillery pieces. (October 1862)
• The seizure of Fort Davis (near present-day Muskogee, OK), brought about by the actions of the Home Guards, who drove off the Confederate warriors stationed there and left the fort a smoldering ruins. (December 1862)
• The capture of Fort Gibson, during which the Second Indian Home Guard assisted in driving its Confederate defenders into the nearby Grand River, forcing the survivors to swim for their lives. (April 1863)
• Action at Cabin Creek, where soldiers of the Indian Home Guards helped to save a Union supply train from being captured by the forces of Stand Watie, the most persistent of the Confederate Indian commanders. (July 1863)
• Honey Springs, site of the most important Confederate installation in Indian Territory. Here, the Indian regiments, along with white soldiers and African-American troops, combined in a pitched battle called by some “the Gettysburg of Indian Territory.” Union forces combined to drive the Confederates from the area, liberated valuable stores of supplies, and most importantly, secured the Union Army a firm foothold in Indian Territory. (July 1863)

Snip... Total war...

Total Warfare

The actions of the Union Home Guards made it possible for their families to begin returning home, some of them doing so as early as spring of 1863. But the war was not over, fierce and determined opposition brought about two more years of fighting.

In early 1864, the Indian Home Guards went on a march through the southern part of the territory, engaging in Sherman like destruction, laying waste wherever they marched. Houses and other structures were destroyed, the economy ruined, and thousands became homeless refugees, as tribes continued fighting each other. Tensions continued until the very end of the war.

The determination of the Indian Home Guards contributed to ultimate Union victory. Individual soldiers felt a sense of pride, with “war whoops sounding up and down the line” when they rode into battle. They had been driven from the Indian Territory in rags, but they came back in Union blue, successful in their quest to return home.

The Indian Home Guards were definitely an example of segregated troops. The Third Indian Home Guards also were involved in counter insurgency in Missouri and Arkansas.
Kirk's Raiders

 

[5fish]

Here I found this short video on the Infian Home Guard and the havoc cause by the civil war ...

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

Here I found this short video on the Infian Home Guard and the havoc cause by the civil war ...

Do you have the full url that I can post elsewhere?
Thanks
Kirk's Raiders

 

[rittmeister]

Do you have the full url that I can post elsewhere?
Thanks
Kirk's Raiders

wouldn't help you as a full youtube url shows as the clip - click with the right mouse button on the vid and take the second from above (copy video url or somesuch)