Popular Sovereignty...

Discussion in 'Secession - Discuss secession.' started by 5fish, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    Popular Sovereignty defied:

    1. government's subjection to people: the doctrine that the people are sovereign and a government is subject to the will of the people

    2. doctrine permitting choice on slavery: a pre-Civil War political doctrine that held that individual states should decide whether to permit slavery or not. It was espoused mainly by opponents of the abolition of slavery.

    Popular Sovereignty is written into our Constitution. It is the bases of our government and of all democratic governments. It became a buzz term doing the 1850's as a solution in resolving the issue of slavery and the Western territories.

    Popular Sovereignty was the proper democratic solution to the issue of slavery expanding into the Western territories. We are flip towards Presidents Pierce and Douglas for their belief in this concept but all they were doing was believing in the basic democratic concept that the will of the people should decide. They were believing there was a democratic solution to the issue if slavery should be allowed to expand westward and history berates them for it.

    We know popular sovereignty was not the solution to the issue if slavery should expand westward or not. We know that it led to a bloody Kansas and the border wars. In the end the state chose to a non-slave state so we can say it worked. No one ever said the democratic process is easy so why did the pro-slavery people give up on this democratic ideal. One must admit even the anti-slavery people did not like the use of popular sovereignty to solve the issue.

    Is not the concept of "States Rights" based on the concept of popular sovereignty?

    I argue "Popular sovereignty" would have resolved the issue of slavery moving westward. If the people would have just stayed true to this basic idea of democratic government. Yes, there may have been more Bloody Kansas's but in the end, the people would have still chosen their own path, most likely the non-slavery path.

    I argue that a "Bleeding Kansas, the Civil War, and later Civil Rights" has changed the relationship of the governed. Our current relationship is now the Government as the sovereign despite what our written laws hold that it's within the people.

    Popular Sovereignty was the democratic solution to the issue of slavery moving westward if only the American people just believed in the democratic values, no civil war just a few more Bleeding Kansas's...


    a notion...
     
  2. Wehrkraftzersetzer

    Wehrkraftzersetzer Hüter des Reinheitsgebotes

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    I do think that democracy should not be a shootout
     
  3. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not a shootout but it is messy. I you believe in democracy than allow democracy to work...

    Popular Sovereignty is believing in democracy..
     
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  4. Wehrkraftzersetzer

    Wehrkraftzersetzer Hüter des Reinheitsgebotes

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    remember a cartoon by "Ruge" in Penthouse or Playboy

    two Mexicans behind a barrier
    lots of corpses
    guy loading a rifle
    guy aiming

    guy loading: problem with these elections - not all voters show up
     
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  5. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    Violence is wrong but not believing in democracy is worse.

    In the end democracy will get it right. Democracy only needs to be trusted...
     
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  6. O' Be Joyful

    O' Be Joyful Well-Known Member

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    '‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’'

    Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

    We can only continue...to hope, that the pendulum does not reverse backwards and further away from enlightenment and thus its subsequent regression towards a modern Dark Ages.
     
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  7. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    Democracy beside trusting it, you must understand democracy needs times to get things right or do the right thing. It took us a century to end Jim Crow laws...

    Quotes by Abba Eban who was an Israeli politician and diplomat.
    Quote: “Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other resources.”
    Quote: “nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.”
    Quote: “My experience teaches me this,” he said, “Men and nations do act wisely when they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”


    My point of these quotes is like how democracy works, Democracy's keep trying until they get it right...

    Quotes About America often contributed to Churchill but there is no evidence for it...

    (1) Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.
    (2) The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.
    (3) You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.
    (4) The Americans will always do the right thing… after they’ve exhausted all the alternatives.

    My point it democracy is not perfect but it keeps working until it finds the right solution, even if it takes a century...

    Popular Sovereignty would have worked had the American people just trusted it and given democracy time to do it thing... I am talking years, decades and ect...

    Link to the quotes: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/11/exhaust-alternatives/
     
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  8. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Webmaster Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't think the slaveowners were much into Democracy. It is interesting that they opposed Popular Sovereignty, but they always knew they would be overwhelmed by the majority.
     
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  9. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    It was the 1854 Kansas-Nebraska compromise that gave birth to the Republican party and brought Lincoln back into politics... It seems the Republicans did not like democracy either... It seems only the doughface Democrats believed in democracy...

    The Kansas-Nebraska Act drew new borders for Kansas and Nebraska and allowed its citizens to decide the inclusion or exclusion of slavery by popular sovereignty within their boundaries. Northern abolitionists viewed the Act as a provocation, as a betrayal of the North and against the policy of incremental abolitionism. Abolitionist leaders such as Frederick Douglass took a more revolutionary role. The nullification of the 1820 Missouri Compromise led to violent instability and became the most significant turning point on the road to the American Civil War.

    As a result of sectional differences a new party was born, the Republican Party. It emerged as an opposition to the Kansas-Nebraska Act. The Republican Party was made up of members of different parties and its appeal rested on the non-extension of slavery and on the agreement that slavery is morally wrong. Debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas became the most interesting political debates in the country according to the New York Times and the Chicago Tribune.

    LinkS:http://www.compromise-of-1850.org/kansas-nebraska-act-1854/


    Few were willing to let democracy work out the issue of Slave state vs Free state...

     
  10. Matt McKeon

    Matt McKeon Well-Known Member

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    Popular sovereignty, in practice didn't work, because no one was willing to let local people decide an issue that, afterall, wasn't a local issue.
     
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  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Webmaster Staff Member Administrator

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    I think that is a very good point.
     
  12. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    I nice thought but states struggle with national issues all the time in their own way. I am saying democracy is messy but it will work overtime...
     
  13. Wehrkraftzersetzer

    Wehrkraftzersetzer Hüter des Reinheitsgebotes

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    a nice thought (yes stolen from 5 fish) but if locals decide we have next to no (glorious) war

    locals prefer to f*ck that carpenter's daughter and have their sister f*cked by the butcher

    everything without force and three villages inclined, doesn't work with nations & national commanders

    Let's be local
     
  14. Matt McKeon

    Matt McKeon Well-Known Member

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    I think Bleeding Kansas was messy...with blood. Slavery was an issue of national importance, so it was naïve to think the settlers in Kansas would be allowed to decide, without attempts, often violent, to intervene.
     
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  15. O' Be Joyful

    O' Be Joyful Well-Known Member

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    As I recall, much--actually most-- of the initial violence "drifted" over the border from what is known as the state of Misery/Missouri, to "force" Kansas into becoming a Slave state.

    If I am incorrect "Show Me."

    "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."


    The phrase is now used to describe the character of Missourians; not gullible, conservative, and unwilling to believe without adequate evidence.

    https://statesymbolsusa.org/symbol-official-item/missouri/state-nickname/show-me-state
     
  16. Wehrkraftzersetzer

    Wehrkraftzersetzer Hüter des Reinheitsgebotes

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    = some sort of gun very close to valuable body parts (e.g.the head)
     
  17. Matt McKeon

    Matt McKeon Well-Known Member

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    The border ruffians launched a campaign of intimidation and fraud designed to make Kansas a slave state, an effort that other slave states supported. There's a pretty good description of this in Battle Cry of Freedom. Demographically, the settlers in Kansas were similar to settlers throughout the West and went to Kansas for similar reasons. A fair and free election process would have decided that Kansas would be a free state. But that was the last thing likely to happen. Settling the west had become politicized and politics had become toxic. The responsible thing for Washington to do was to either enforce a fair and free election and accept the results or work out another national level compromise. Trying to pass the buck to the locals, and then tilt the results in your own favor was the worse possible policy.
     
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  18. 5fish

    5fish Well-Known Member

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    The Federal government should have done more to protect the people from violence and their will to exercise their political will...


    I found Stephane Douglas defence of Popular Sovereignty ... https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/4458

    Senator Stephen Douglas, the "Little Giant" from Illinois, wrote an article for Harpers Magazine in 1859 entitled "Popular Sovereignty in the Territories."

    He explained his interpretation of popular sovereignty with two basic arguments. First, he contended that the position of the people of the territories, in regards to the issue of slavery, was similar to the position of the colonies under British rule, who were denied the right to stop the importation of slaves. As an example, he described a letter sent to the King of England in 1772 citing a clause in the Virginia Constitution adopted in June, 1776, claiming as justification for Independence, "the inhuman use of the Royal negative in refusing us [the Colony of Virginia] permission to exclude slavery from us by law"

    His second argument justified both Congress's role in the territories and the ability of a territorial government to decide the issue of slavery. To accomplish this, Douglas referred to the clause in the Constitution which gave Congress the power to "make all rules and regulations respecting the territory," of the United States. This gave Congress the power to appoint a territorial government, as in Kansas and Nebraska, which would regulate the slavery issue on the basis of popular sovereignty. Douglas also claimed that the founders often referred to the territory as "States" or "new States." Thus, if the territories are considered to be "States" or "new States," then they, like any of the states, have the power to permit or deny slavery in their territory.


    The Kansas territory was the proving ground for Douglas' pet project, and when, according to McPherson, the situation there began to deteriorate, Douglas' attachment to popular sovereignty became a political liability.

    A fierce defender of the doctrine, Douglas shall always be remembered for what he said, as quoted by historian Eric Dean, of popular sovereignty,
    "I will follow that principle wherever its logical consequences may take me and I will endeavor to defend it against assault from any and all quarters."

    It seems that Douglas was a believer in Democracy...

     
  19. Matt McKeon

    Matt McKeon Well-Known Member

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    Douglas was a great believer in the destiny of Stephen Douglas.
     
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  20. O' Be Joyful

    O' Be Joyful Well-Known Member

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    :) brilliant
     

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