Who “won” Reconstruction?

[Viper21]

Well you know what they say, if you keep running into jerks maybe you're the jerk Joking of course.

I didn't say, I keep running into jerks. I said, "I run into more jerks in the cities.(as opposed to in rural areas)" I don't run into jerks very often either. Though, I see & or interact with, more crappy attitudes & former DMV workers in the cities.

Haha... I feel like you had the short end of the stick when you were in big cities.

Nah. Not at all. I've had some great experiences in most big cities I've lived in, & interacted in.

This cuts both ways though, I wouldn't trust my safety wearing a Hillary t-shirt through much fo the rural South lol.

I see liberal propaganda almost daily. I've never seen anyone so much as comment to a person negatively about their "I'm with her" bumper sticker, or pick your lib propaganda, advertisement/slogan. My right hand man, voted for her, & despises our current President lol.

With that said where I've lived, especially Eugene, you might get talked to,

Which is all my point was.

The congestion is I think a fully valid and fully objective point. That's simply an objective downside of living in a city.

Agreed.

As far as violence, true to some extent. Some rural areas have pretty horrible violent crime and crime stats too

Hasn't been a murder in the small town closest to me, in decades. I believe the last one was in the early 70's. A husband shot a man who was bangin his wife.

I bet you lock your doors at night ...lol.

The big city offers you options. More neighborhood choices, more job choices, more commute choices, etc. Those can give you a different piece of mind as well. There are pros and cons to everything in life. Nothing is black and white. Likewise each big city or small town is unique in its own ways.

I agree with this summary. Which is why, even 20yrs ago, I was careful in choosing, what I believe to be my final spot. I admittedly need some urban areas to survive financially. Though, working in em is enough for me. I prefer to live in the country, quietly, peacefully, & with minimal crime. The city does have a lot to offer, to plenty of folks. I hope they remain happy there, & stay

 

[MattL]

I didn't say, I keep running into jerks. I said, "I run into more jerks in the cities.(as opposed to in rural areas)" I don't run into jerks very often either. Though, I see & or interact with, more crappy attitudes & former DMV workers in the cities.


Nah. Not at all. I've had some great experiences in most big cities I've lived in, & interacted in.

I didn't mean to imply that. Again my experience in small towns exists, but is limited. My wife however had a very different experience than you. She'll talk your ear off about how much nicer and friendlier people are in big cities.

I see liberal propaganda almost daily. I've never seen anyone so much as comment to a person negatively about their "I'm with her" bumper sticker, or pick your lib propaganda, advertisement/slogan. My right hand man, voted for her, & despises our current President lol.

Not what I asked though If I walked in many Southern rural areas with a Hillary t-shirt (that was your comparison) would I not be harassed as you said the reverse.

I don't know if you watched the show Top Gear (Brittish car show), but in one of their visits to America many years ago around 2006/2007 they started in Florida, got three cheap cars and drove them to New Orleans (to visit the Katrina recover etc). They drove through a lot of Southern back country. As a gag they painted each car with something they thought would get them harassed. The three things were "Gay Love Rules", "Nascar Sucks", and "Hillary for President". They clearly thought it was more of a gag for the tv show than any real danger. Keep in mind this was about 10 years before the last election, so long before any of that heated up.

As they drove through a small town in Alabama they stopped for gas. The lady who ran the place made a call to the "boys" on her phone and a truck of mostly shirtless men drove up and started to try to run them off. They started throwing rocks at them. One of the few times the show has ever turned their cameras off as they ran to their vehicles and moved along quickly (another time was a bit of an international incident in Argentina met with aggressive people).

So I don't know if I'm so convinced if I wore a Hillary t-shirt in some rural Southern areas I wouldn't get similar treatment.

What I would concede is though I've seen Trump red hats in SF and wouldn't worry about wearing one there. I wouldn't even think about wearing one through downtown Oakland. I suspect it's the same with rural areas. Some areas you'd be fine, others you'll get attacked and run off by "the boys."

Hasn't been a murder in the small town closest to me, in decades. I believe the last one was in the early 70's. A husband shot a man who was bangin his wife.

Sounds like you're in a good area. There are plenty of small towns with heavy crime, including violent ones however, especially these days with the opioid crisis, though even that's not something completely new.

I bet you lock your doors at night ...lol.

Absolutely. A downside of being in the city for sure. Though this depends on where you live to a great extent as well. Growing up my family was pretty poor and we lived in a pretty poor area of Phoenix. One where as white people we were a minority. We had our apartment broken into multiple times. I remember our VCR being stolen at least once (ohh memories of VHS tapes lol). Later on the situation improved and since then it's never been an issue.

Likewise there are those towns, again the most obvious with opioid problems, where you'll want to lock your doors too Poverty is often a great predictor more than population. A big city is just a bunch of small towns stitched together, some of those are very safe, some aren't, much like small towns on their own.

One place I lived but didn't list was when I was young (2nd-4th grade, not sure what ages those align with) my family moved from Arizona to western Massachusetts and then back to Arizona (yeah, very odd). My father joined up with my uncles art studio (they both are very similar, identical twins, both artists, my uncle used to work for Disney) there. I believe my uncle was there mostly due to ties to the Normal Rockwell museum. Though the city we lived in wasn't super small (think 40k is or something) I remember often people left their doors unlocked. Though I think the place was getting just big enough people were starting to consider not doing so.

With all that said that sense of safety in a small town can be somewhat of an illusion. Just look up registered sex offenders in your small town areas, you might be surprised. My wife was surprised to find as many as she did in her 2,000-ish population home town.

I agree with this summary. Which is why, even 20yrs ago, I was careful in choosing, what I believe to be my final spot. I admittedly need some urban areas to survive financially. Though, working in em is enough for me. I prefer to live in the country, quietly, peacefully, & with minimal crime. The city does have a lot to offer, to plenty of folks. I hope they remain happy there, & stay

Yeah, the same with a city too. Not all cities are the same either, despite common factors. Each has their own vibe, feel, and various aspects. I'm always a fan of people finding where they want to be wherever that may be. Unfortunately a lot of people have little choice and live in poverty and subsequently have to live in high crime areas of cities or high crime towns.

With that said there has been a continuous trend since 1790 (and before but we have the census for that) of more and more people living in "urban" classified areas. In 1790 only 5% of the population lived in urban vs rural areas. Now 80% of the population live in urban areas. So though city folk used to be a minority (pre 1920 when the majority switched). If you generalize an American it's someone living in an urban situation by a large margin. So like it not you are a minority Being a minority in a democracy can be quite challenging.

 

[Viper21]

Not what I asked though If I walked in many Southern rural areas with a Hillary t-shirt (that was your comparison) would I not be harassed as you said the reverse.

I don't know if you watched the show Top Gear (Brittish car show), but in one of their visits to America many years ago around 2006/2007 they started in Florida, got three cheap cars and drove them to New Orleans (to visit the Katrina recover etc). They drove through a lot of Southern back country. As a gag they painted each car with something they thought would get them harassed. The three things were "Gay Love Rules", "Nascar Sucks", and "Hillary for President". They clearly thought it was more of a gag for the tv show than any real danger. Keep in mind this was about 10 years before the last election, so long before any of that heated up.

As they drove through a small town in Alabama they stopped for gas. The lady who ran the place made a call to the "boys" on her phone and a truck of mostly shirtless men drove up and started to try to run them off. They started throwing rocks at them. One of the few times the show has ever turned their cameras off as they ran to their vehicles and moved along quickly (another time was a bit of an international incident in Argentina met with aggressive people).

So I don't know if I'm so convinced if I wore a Hillary t-shirt in some rural Southern areas I wouldn't get similar treatment.

You'd be just fine where I live. I don't believe what you quoted from Top Gear either. Not saying you didn't see what you saw but, most of television is scripted. Especially reality TV. Not a lot of spontaneous, caught on camera stuff......except maybe "Cops", & shows like that.

What I would concede is though I've seen Trump red hats in SF and wouldn't worry about wearing one there. I wouldn't even think about wearing one through downtown Oakland. I suspect it's the same with rural areas. Some areas you'd be fine, others you'll get attacked and run off by "the boys."

Hard to say. Though, I stand by my assertion

Sounds like you're in a good area. There are plenty of small towns with heavy crime, including violent ones however, especially these days with the opioid crisis, though even that's not something completely new.

Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of tweekers, & such running around the general area. I'm just far enough off the beaten path (private road), my home isn't visible to the general public.

Absolutely. A downside of being in the city for sure. Though this depends on where you live to a great extent as well. Growing up my family was pretty poor and we lived in a pretty poor area of Phoenix. One where as white people we were a minority. We had our apartment broken into multiple times. I remember our VCR being stolen at least once (ohh memories of VHS tapes lol). Later on the situation improved and since then it's never been an issue.

Something else we have in common. I grew up pretty poor as well. I can relate to apartment living. Lived in the same (big city) apartment complex till I was 14. Had a bicycle stolen off of our porch one night. It was chained to the metal railing, through the front tire. In the morning, the only thing left was the front tire

Poverty is often a great predictor more than population.

I'll agree with this. Though, plenty of "rich kids" are thieves as well.

With all that said that sense of safety in a small town can be somewhat of an illusion. Just look up registered sex offenders in your small town areas, you might be surprised. My wife was surprised to find as many as she did in her 2,000-ish population home town.

I have. Been doing that since my children were little, & the info was available. There's way less of em close to me now, than when I lived in the concrete jungle.

Yeah, the same with a city too. Not all cities are the same either, despite common factors. Each has their own vibe, feel, and various aspects. I'm always a fan of people finding where they want to be wherever that may be. Unfortunately a lot of people have little choice and live in poverty and subsequently have to live in high crime areas of cities or high crime towns.

Living like that when I was young, motivated me to rise above it. I've spent a lot of blood, sweat, & tears, overcoming my situation.

With that said there has been a continuous trend since 1790 (and before but we have the census for that) of more and more people living in "urban" classified areas. In 1790 only 5% of the population lived in urban vs rural areas. Now 80% of the population live in urban areas. So though city folk used to be a minority (pre 1920 when the majority switched). If you generalize an American it's someone living in an urban situation by a large margin. So like it not you are a minority Being a minority in a democracy can be quite challenging.

We live in a Republic (fortunately).

 

[5fish]

Did the South win Reconstruction?

In the short term, the North won the war and united the nation and freed the slaves and the X-confederates won the Reconstruction period and the written narrative of the war and Reconstruction periods. The seeds were sowed during war and Reconstruction for the Freedman that came to fruition in the mid-20th century giving them the victory in the long term. The seeds of the 13th, 14th and 15th were sowed but did not bloom in their full glory until the mid- 20th century giving the freedmen their rights so long withheld. The seeds of public school system thought-out the south were sowed guaranteeing freedman and education poor as it may have been it gave birth to men in the 20th century who would lead the civil rights movement. The last seeds sow were the black colleges that arose from the Reconstruction and brought forth in the 20th century the lawyers and leaders that won justice and civil rights for the child of the first freedmen... In the long run America and the freedom men won Reconstruction...

 

[MattL]

You'd be just fine where I live. I don't believe what you quoted from Top Gear either. Not saying you didn't see what you saw but, most of television is scripted. Especially reality TV. Not a lot of spontaneous, caught on camera stuff......except maybe "Cops", & shows like that.


Hard to say. Though, I stand by my assertion

Fair enough. Top Gear has a ton of scripted content, there's a few case where reality forced unscripted events no matter how hard you try. I'll put it this way, when talking about this very think by my co-worker and friend who was raised in Florida he disagreed with your point of view strongly. Likewise my wife would expect some sort of response walking through her home town with a Hillary t-shirt (though her home town seems pretty safe, even if she's not very fond of it at all, she has joked about this exact scenario in fact).

Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of tweekers, & such running around the general area. I'm just far enough off the beaten path (private road), my home isn't visible to the general public.

That's a good point. I can absolutely understand why.

Something else we have in common. I grew up pretty poor as well. I can relate to apartment living. Lived in the same (big city) apartment complex till I was 14. Had a bicycle stolen off of our porch one night. It was chained to the metal railing, through the front tire. In the morning, the only thing left was the front tire

Lol yup. To be fair to apartments I've mostly lived in them my whole life and still do (pay more for my apartment in the SF Bay Area than my damn 3,000 square foot house mortgage in Vegas) I've been fortunate to afford much better apartments where I've never had a problem since. I'm sure you hold the same views, that not all apartments are equally bad, but just wanted to put it out there for onlookers. Hell, the temporary housing 2 bedroom apartment I had in SF when my work first relocated me is somewhere around $5,000 a month rent (a big reason I'm not in SF the city itself) and was very nice and very safe. My wife felt fully comfortable walking me to work or to meet me and walk back even quite late. Like anywhere even in downtown SF if your in the right area things are a world apart than from a wrong area.

I'll agree with this. Though, plenty of "rich kids" are thieves as well.

Valid point.

I have. Been doing that since my children were little, & the info was available. There's way less of em close to me now, than when I lived in the concrete jungle.

Probably depends on where you are living, my wife was surprised to find that in her small town there was a higher density than some of the places we've lived. So just pointing out it's not a hard fast rule that these things are closer to you in the concrete jungle vs a small town, depends where in the concrete jungle and which small town. For the record her small town seems perfectly nice and safe, pretty average really. Not like some that are heavily crime ridden etc.

Living like that when I was young, motivated me to rise above it. I've spent a lot of blood, sweat, & tears, overcoming my situation.

Definitely something we have in common. It definitely takes a lot of work, though not just that. I think Buzz Aldrin put it best when he was talking about his success in a documentary, he said it takes hard word and luck. There are plenty of hard working people that miss out on the luck too.

We live in a Republic (fortunately).

haha, well as you know we live in a Democratic Republic (which is indeed a form of Democracy). Our Republic representatives are elected Democratically. Our Nation has always been proud of not just being a Republic, but of being a Democratic one. A Republic without the Democracy means pretty much nothing in regards to peoples say.

Minorities in a Democratic Republic face many challenges, including small town inhabitants since the 20s when they became the minority and they grow more a minority every decade.

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

In the short term, the North won the war and united the nation and freed the slaves and the X-confederates won the Reconstruction period and the written narrative of the war and Reconstruction periods. The seeds were sowed during war and Reconstruction for the Freedman that came to fruition in the mid-20th century giving them the victory in the long term. The seeds of the 13th, 14th and 15th were sowed but did not bloom in their full glory until the mid- 20th century giving the freedmen their rights so long withheld. The seeds of public school system thought-out the south were sowed guaranteeing freedman and education poor as it may have been it gave birth to men in the 20th century who would lead the civil rights movement. The last seeds sow were the black colleges that arose from the Reconstruction and brought forth in the 20th century the lawyers and leaders that won justice and civil rights for the child of the first freedmen... In the long run America and the freedom men won Reconstruction...

Yes and no. Post 1960s black history has not been exactly a parade of lollipops and rainbows.
No doubt the idea of an independent Slave Republic was destroyed. Slavery itself certainly survived the ACW in a modified fashion. Convict labor in the South would flourish well into the mid 20th Century . Many of the convict labor force was black and convicted of false charges.
In recent decades slavery has crept back but it is still illegal.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[O' Be Joyful]

haha, well as you know we live in a Democratic Republic (which is indeed a form of Democracy). Our Republic representatives are elected Democratically.

With unbiased and equally representative district lines, in "most" cases o/c.

 

[MattL]

With unbiased and equally representative district lines, in "most" cases o/c.

Haha, well I won't make a statement on how well implemented our Democracy is. I will say it's better than more representative of the overall population compared to non-Democratic Republics or forms of government.

For some reason it's come into fad for people to just call us a Republic (despite "Democracy" being the way the majority of people summarized our government not long ago). You simply cannot ignore the fact that we are a Democracy as well, that was the critical form in which our founders adopted a Republic. Read Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton. Read the Federalist papers. The Constitutional convention debates, the Constitution itself.. They did not advocate a non-democratic Republic, they specifically advocated one with specific forms of assigning those Representatives. Likewise we've become far more Democratic in ways we pretty much all value. Like women and black people voting now.

Minorities can get stomped on in democracies. That's what rights were for as Jefferson himself outlined in his inauguration speech. A tough balance though.

 

[Viper21]

In recent decades slavery has crept back but it is still illegal.
Kirk's Raider's

Care to expand on this comment....?

 

[Viper21]

...the temporary housing 2 bedroom apartment I had in SF when my work first relocated me is somewhere around $5,000 a month rent...

HOLY MOLY..!! That is insane to me. You'd laugh if I shared my mortgage payment with you...... Granted, different situations. Still shocking to hear of a 2 bedroom apt costing $5,000/mo. Other than the most pimp of places. A person could live on a pretty serious estate in my neck of the woods, for a smaller monthly nut than that...lol.

Definitely something we have in common. It definitely takes a lot of work, though not just that. I think Buzz Aldrin put it best when he was talking about his success in a documentary, he said it takes hard word and luck. There are plenty of hard working people that miss out on the luck too.

Takes a few brain cells too.

I must say though, success is subjective. I know multiple people who scrape by, & have all they ever wanted out of life. They are indeed happy, in a situation plenty of us wouldn't be. That said, I do know some miserable wealthy folks. Though, they are exceptions....lol.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Still shocking to hear of a 2 bedroom apt costing $5,000/mo

Welcome to zee BIG city. No wonder "those" people are rude, they can only afford $8 cups of coffee.

I'll take the blend at a Shell or BP.

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

Care to expand on this comment....?

Plenty of articles I can cite about modern day slavery. In Los Angeles County the Department of Homeland Security has purchased posters on MTA buses and subways to be on the lookout for modern day slaves. That is people brought into this country illegally and being forced to work.
I think it's called "Operation Blue".
Quite a few young girls are coerced by violent pimps to become prostitutes. That's all over the US.
There have been arrests made of coerced labor in the US recently. Not blaming the South just saying slavery is coming back.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Viper21]

Welcome to zee BIG city. No wonder "those" people are rude, they can only afford $8 cups of coffee.

I'll take the blend at a Shell or BP.

I can appreciate a good cup of coffee. Start every morning with one or two. Though, I don't do foo foo coffee very often. Pretty rare in fact. Although, even out in the boonies, I do use a keurig..lol. For about the last 15yrs or so, I've been a grind my own beans kinda guy. The pre-loaded pods are taking over though

 

[Viper21]

Plenty of articles I can cite about modern day slavery. In Los Angeles County the Department of Homeland Security has purchased posters on MTA buses and subways to be on the lookout for modern day slaves. That is people brought into this country illegally and being forced to work.
I think it's called "Operation Blue".
Quite a few young girls are coerced by violent pimps to become prostitutes. That's all over the US.
There have been arrests made of coerced labor in the US recently. Not blaming the South just saying slavery is coming back.
Kirk's Raider's

In California..??? I thought Cali was a Woke Utopia......(couldn't resist).

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

I can appreciate a good cup of coffee. Start every morning with one or two. Though, I don't do foo foo coffee very often. Pretty rare in fact. Although, even out in the boonies, I do use a keurig..lol. For about the last 15yrs or so, I've been a grind my own beans kinda guy. The pre-loaded pods are taking over though

Easy enough to Google DHS "Blue Campaign".
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

In California..??? I thought Cali was a Woke Utopia......(couldn't resist).

Not just California but all over the US.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[MattL]

HOLY MOLY..!! That is insane to me. You'd laugh if I shared my mortgage payment with you...... Granted, different situations. Still shocking to hear of a 2 bedroom apt costing $5,000/mo. Other than the most pimp of places. A person could live on a pretty serious estate in my neck of the woods, for a smaller monthly nut than that...lol.

Yeah, it still shocks me. When I was in that housing for a couple weeks about 8-10 years ago it was more around $2,500-$3,000. That's how much rents have increased. Even at that price for that time I decided to move much further out, actually for about 6 years to a small coastal city about 15 min south of SF that felt like you were in a relatively small place (despite everything being close). I actually had an apartment with an ocean view, the ocean air and noise was the best part. Unfortunately rent there rose from $1700 to $3000 a month so decided to move elsewhere for cheaper rent. My mortgage on my brand new 3,000 sqft house in Las Vegas was about $1700, so it was a serious sticker shock.

I know the cost of living is a big bash on California sometimes, though to be fair the cost is so high since it's so desirable and in such high demand. If you buy you have a much higher chance of getting your money back and making some money than most places.

Vegas and Phoenix are massively cheaper though. My family is in Phoenix so the current plan is to move back there some day... though I have this draw to moving to one of the surrounding towns/cities of Atlanta (a bit of a ways out where I can get at least a bit of land) where the housing prices are very low yet still can be close enough to big city amenities. Part of the draw is I have a lot of ancestry from the Northern Georgian hills not far from Atlanta so would be nice to see those places. Plus I grew up in Arizona so some green would be nice (the green here in Cali is good too, just a much higher cost of green lol).

Takes a few brain cells too.

I must say though, success is subjective. I know multiple people who scrape by, & have all they ever wanted out of life. They are indeed happy, in a situation plenty of us wouldn't be. That said, I do know some miserable wealthy folks. Though, they are exceptions....lol.

All good points. I definitely don't define success purely by financial success (though stability makes a world of difference in quality of life). I still agree with Aldrin that to get a lot of that success of any kind still requires luck, hard word and brain cells won't matter if you don't get a bit of luck. I mean at the basic level just that you don't die the next time you walk out your front door, the other things that luck requires goes from there. Don't get me wrong a lot of people who think they are unlucky just make bad choices, though there are still factors outside all of our control.

I can appreciate a good cup of coffee. Start every morning with one or two. Though, I don't do foo foo coffee very often. Pretty rare in fact. Although, even out in the boonies, I do use a keurig..lol. For about the last 15yrs or so, I've been a grind my own beans kinda guy. The pre-loaded pods are taking over though

Same here. I never was a huge coffee fan (not against it, just wasn't my thing) until I started grinding my own. I mean the smell of fresh ground coffee alone is worth it and it really brings out the flavor for me. Getting towards winter so time to start doing that again. I too have a Keurig for when I'm lazy or for hot chocolate. It also never hurts to add a bit of bourbon

In California..??? I thought Cali was a Woke Utopia......(couldn't resist).

Haha No Utopia but I absolutely love it here. I'm probably not going to retire here due to the cost of living and just wanting something bigger for my money when the time comes (though you never know I guess). I especially love the food options and diversity. That's not a tag line either, there's something about being exposed to other cultures, ethnicities, languages, etc that can be very rewarding. Certainly not the only rewarding thing, but it is rewarding. Here even more than most big cities you learn to realize you'r views and culture isn't the only one, that there are tons of variations out there and that's fine.

One thing to keep in mind about things happening in Cali is it has the largest state population by far. Nearly 40 million people (and growing). About 12% of the entire population of the US lives in California. There are something like 4-6 major metro areas here, most of which alone are bigger than most States. Obviously it's geographically large as well. So when it comes to frequency of things happening you simply will have a lot of it here since you have again 12% of the country living here. As far as illegal slavery Cali is also coastal with major ports and specifically Pacific, so those factors alone drive a lot of that (much like New York and its ports for example).

I'll add regarding slavery that legal slavery never ended, is still alive and growing and making private businesses quite a bit of money, including in fairly skilled work (like carpentry etc).

I guess two more reconstruction era myths

1) That legal slavery ended
2) That slavery couldn't be adapted to manufacturing and skilled labor

 

[O' Be Joyful]

I thought Cali was a Woke Utopia......(couldn't resist).

You are watching **** News too much. (couldn't resist

)*

* I am a reformed former viewer.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Not just California but all over the US.

YIKES!! Are you inferring that sensible policies--similar to which St. Ronald of Regan, as governor of Cali signed and Richard Nixon signed establishing the EPA--might be infecting the rest of the good Ol' U.S. of A.

Heaven forbid and forfend.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

We live in a Republic (fortunately).

"If, we can keep it"--B. Franklin