5fish
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They are the same thing... and Native American tribes fall into a similar category... The word Nation is a descriptive term for a group of people.
Native Americans Were Doomed
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5fish
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Remember Discovery Doctrine limits Native American sovereignty to much less than a nation state...
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diane
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A nation is a bunch of folks with a common descent, language, history, culture and residence. You really need to define tribe. (It's like having the news report an incident in an American 'village' - you know the reporter is not American!)
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discovery doctrine is nothing but a robber's manual - a mugger limits you to the status of a victim; you want to be officially treated like that?
5fish
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I am not saying the morality of the laws but its the law. You change the law before we start taking about native American tribes a nation states. They are at best ethic states using the nation to describe them...
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... invented by the robbers themselves
you are making a big mistake - they are nations but not nation states. iceland or greece are nation states, the kurdish nation does not have a (nation) state.
they are not ethic (i guess there's an N missing) states either - they are not states at all.
you really want to look up nation
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that doesn't make it okay to rob them of course or deny them a nation state aka hand back territory and take down ther stars and stripes on said territory (yeah, i know that won't happen - manifest destiny and all that nonsense)
Self-determination - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
5fish
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I think self determination sound great until put into practice... Remember after WW2, America and the colonial powers did their best to recreate their colonial empires. It seems self determination sounds good until someone loses their status...
The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, nor what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation.[9] Neither does it state what the delimitation between peoples should be—nor what constitutes a people. There are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.[10
There is not yet a recognized legal definition of "peoples" in international law.[41]
National self-determination appears to challenge the principle of territorial integrity (or sovereignty) of states as it is the will of the people that makes a state legitimate. This implies a people should be free to choose their own state and its territorial boundaries. However, there are far more self-identified nations than there are existing states and there is no legal process to redraw state boundaries according to the will of these people
5fish
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As you ask... nothing about sovereignty or nation state...
Tribe...
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.
"indigenous Indian tribes"
Joshism
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There's a book coming out soon that questions Manifest Destiny, both its popularity and success.
The next municipality over from where I live is officially the Village of... I live in a Town of 60,000 adjacent to a Town of 400. I used to live in an the largest community in the next county (16,000). It even had City in the name. It was unincorporated. The US municipality system is daft.
But back to tribes vs nations...
In the 19th century, the Sioux nation was split into two parts and each part had multiple bands. There was no chief of all Sioux. Sitting Bull got elected chief of the Lakota, but I don't think the Lakota always had a high chief to speak for all four bands. In any case, Sitting Bull didn't represent the Dakota. Who signs the treaty?
Seminole nation had no high chief, just chiefs of various bands (Cow Creek, etc). No Seminole chief had authority to sign a treaty that was binding for all Seminoles.
When the Spanish arrived in Florida in the 1500s they the Timucua people who spoke the Timucuan language and all had a shared culture. There were 34 chiefs; some had more villages that owed them allegiance than others and some fought with each other. No high chief. One of the largest tribes in Florida but nobody you could sign a treaty with.
diane
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This was exactly the problem with the treaties signed in 1851. Reddick McKee went swirling through California with a saddle bag full of treaties to be signed by the chiefs of whatever tribe he encountered - Henry Halleck's man to help settle claims from the Mexican War. Up here, the Shasta treaty was signed by the chiefs of all five bands who were in California, with the sixth over the border in Oregon. They had to make their own treaty three years later amid the Rogue River wars. But there was no real chief of the Shastas, or even a tribal identity. Each band had its own name, spoke a different dialect and were connected by kinship ties. The kinship was much more important than an identifiable 'government'. There was no chief, as you point out.
Ah, yes, there are a number of villages, most recently named. Villages have inter-related people, though, is the real distinction. (Although some old towns could be in that category!)
Ah, yes, there are a number of villages, most recently named. Villages have inter-related people, though, is the real distinction. (Although some old towns could be in that category!)
5fish
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Native Americans were stone age cultures when the European colonizers arrived in the New World... but in the Great Lakes area, copper mining and smelting were being done long before Europeans ever arrived on the continent... It died out and it's a mystery why... One thought is the copper was too pure made it soft... They never invented bronze... I like it every time Native American people die out. The scientist blame drought... it is a good read...
www.science.org
But why did the ancient copper experiment abruptly end? Bebber's work replicating Old Copper–style arrowheads, knives, and awls suggests they weren't necessarily superior to the alternatives, especially after factoring in the time and effort required to produce metal implements. In controlled laboratory tests, such as shooting arrows into clay blocks that simulate meat, she found that stone and bone implements were mostly just as effective as copper. That might be because Great Lakes copper is unusually pure, which makes it soft, unlike harder natural copper alloys found elsewhere in the world, she says. Only copper awls proved superior to bone hole punchers.
Pompeani has identified another potential contributor to Old Copper's fade about 5000 years ago. Sediment cores, tree ring data, and other evidence suggest a sustained dry period struck the region around that time, he says. That could have fueled social and ecological disruptions that made it hard to devote time and resources to making copper tools. Over time, copper may have become something of a luxury item, used to signal social status.
Science | AAAS
www.science.org
But why did the ancient copper experiment abruptly end? Bebber's work replicating Old Copper–style arrowheads, knives, and awls suggests they weren't necessarily superior to the alternatives, especially after factoring in the time and effort required to produce metal implements. In controlled laboratory tests, such as shooting arrows into clay blocks that simulate meat, she found that stone and bone implements were mostly just as effective as copper. That might be because Great Lakes copper is unusually pure, which makes it soft, unlike harder natural copper alloys found elsewhere in the world, she says. Only copper awls proved superior to bone hole punchers.
Pompeani has identified another potential contributor to Old Copper's fade about 5000 years ago. Sediment cores, tree ring data, and other evidence suggest a sustained dry period struck the region around that time, he says. That could have fueled social and ecological disruptions that made it hard to devote time and resources to making copper tools. Over time, copper may have become something of a luxury item, used to signal social status.
5fish
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Here is another article about the copper miners... a short read...
eos.org
Now, new research suggests that Isle Royale’s mining boom peaked about 6000 years ago and left a legacy of aquatic pollution. The high levels of copper, lead, and potassium in sediments from a cove on the island point to a long and intense period of indigenous mining. Researchers presented these results, published recently in the journal The Holocene, in a poster session on 16 December at the 2014 American Geophysical Union Fall Meetin
The spike in pollution began 6500 years ago and lasted for about a millennium. Then, abruptly, it ended, suggesting mining ended too. Pollution did not rise again until the mid-1800s, when mining resumed on Isle Royale, smelting began on the Keweenaw Peninsula, and leaded gasoline emissions grew.
Miners Left a Pollution Trail in the Great Lakes 6000 Years Ago - Eos
Scientists find evidence of ancient copper mining in polluted lake sediments from Isle Royale National Park.
eos.org
Now, new research suggests that Isle Royale’s mining boom peaked about 6000 years ago and left a legacy of aquatic pollution. The high levels of copper, lead, and potassium in sediments from a cove on the island point to a long and intense period of indigenous mining. Researchers presented these results, published recently in the journal The Holocene, in a poster session on 16 December at the 2014 American Geophysical Union Fall Meetin
The spike in pollution began 6500 years ago and lasted for about a millennium. Then, abruptly, it ended, suggesting mining ended too. Pollution did not rise again until the mid-1800s, when mining resumed on Isle Royale, smelting began on the Keweenaw Peninsula, and leaded gasoline emissions grew.
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5fish
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I found that California Indians sign secret treaties in the 1850s... never ratified... @diane
In 1852, with the world rushing into California and gold coursing out, senators in Washington, D.C., met in executive session to consider 18 treaties made with Indians across California. Treaties with Indians, like those with foreign governments, required ratification by the Senate, and ratified Indian treaties had the status of an agreement made with a sovereign nation. Unratified treaties had no force.
Newly tapped correspondence in the papers of Senator Thomas Bard of California reveals for the first time who resurrected the unratified treaties and why their value endured. The story is another facet in the unique history of the Indians of Northern California.
The treaties were never truly secret. The work of the commissioners was public knowledge at the time, contemporary publications mentioned the unratified treaties, and the Indians had their own copies of the treaties. Several scholars examined the treaties in the 1880s and 1890s. Even so, they languished, largely lost and forgotten. With the treaties rejected, the Indian title to the land was left unresolved. A series of executive orders and a congressional act in 1891 led to the creation of small, scattered reservations of varying quality for Indians in Southern California.
In 1852, with the world rushing into California and gold coursing out, senators in Washington, D.C., met in executive session to consider 18 treaties made with Indians across California. Treaties with Indians, like those with foreign governments, required ratification by the Senate, and ratified Indian treaties had the status of an agreement made with a sovereign nation. Unratified treaties had no force.
Newly tapped correspondence in the papers of Senator Thomas Bard of California reveals for the first time who resurrected the unratified treaties and why their value endured. The story is another facet in the unique history of the Indians of Northern California.
The treaties were never truly secret. The work of the commissioners was public knowledge at the time, contemporary publications mentioned the unratified treaties, and the Indians had their own copies of the treaties. Several scholars examined the treaties in the 1880s and 1890s. Even so, they languished, largely lost and forgotten. With the treaties rejected, the Indian title to the land was left unresolved. A series of executive orders and a congressional act in 1891 led to the creation of small, scattered reservations of varying quality for Indians in Southern California.
5fish
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Europeans look at Native Americans...
www.facinghistory.org
Learn about the ideas the first Europeans brought with them to Canada that determined their responses to the Indigenous Peoples they encountered.
When the French and British began to receive news about North America from merchants, explorers, and missionaries, the local people were often described as noble, simple people. Some Europeans imagined the Indigenous communities as an ideal primitive society, living freely in a simpler and more peaceful state than in Europe. Other Europeans also described them as barbaric, a term the Greeks and Romans used to describe people who did not speak their language or share their culture. At other times, Europeans used the term savage to describe people they believed to be uncivilized.
The Idea of the "Indian"
Learn about the ideas the first Europeans brought with them to Canada that determined their responses to the Indigenous Peoples they encountered.
Learn about the ideas the first Europeans brought with them to Canada that determined their responses to the Indigenous Peoples they encountered.
When the French and British began to receive news about North America from merchants, explorers, and missionaries, the local people were often described as noble, simple people. Some Europeans imagined the Indigenous communities as an ideal primitive society, living freely in a simpler and more peaceful state than in Europe. Other Europeans also described them as barbaric, a term the Greeks and Romans used to describe people who did not speak their language or share their culture. At other times, Europeans used the term savage to describe people they believed to be uncivilized.
