The Battle Of Cold Harbor

Al Mackey

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The first thing to keep in mind is that the casualty figure is an estimate, because the US Army only reported casualty figures for the entire 2 weeks [15 days] of Cold Harbor. Narrowing things down to one day is tough, let alone one short period of time. Andrew A. Humphreys, Meade's Chief of Staff, reported that 4,517 Union wounded arrived in field hospitals on June 3 and 4. The rule of thumb at the time was four men wounded for each man killed, so he estimated 1,100 killed, giving a total of 5,617 casualties for those days. "Union casualties have been grossly exaggerated and probably did not exceed 3,500. Commentators have suggested numbers ranging from 7,500 to well above 12,000, all supposedly incurred during a few terrible minutes after dawn. (In reality the assault sputtered on for about an hour, not an eight minutes some writers have claimed.) The 12,000 estimate in fact reflects the official tally of all casualties for the entire Cold Harbor campaign--12,788, to be exact--embracing the cavalry battles of May 31 and June 1, the 6th and 18th Corps attacks at Cold Harbor on June 1, the 5th and 9th Corps fights around Bethesda Church from June 1 forward, and casualties in all Union corps for the remainder of their stay at Cold Harbor and during their movement across the Chickahominy and James Rivers toward Petersburg. The oft-quoted 7,500 figure derives from attempts by early postwar writers to estimate all Union losses for June 3, a day that included a great deal more fighting than just the grand assault." [Gordon C. Rhea, Cold Harbor, p. 359]
 

5fish

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The first thing to keep in mind is that the casualty figure is an estimate, because the US Army only reported casualty figures for the entire 2 weeks [15 days] of Cold Harbor. Narrowing things down to one day is tough, let alone one short period of time. Andrew A. Humphreys, Meade's Chief of Staff, reported that 4,517 Union wounded arrived in field hospitals on June 3 and 4. The rule of thumb at the time was four men wounded for each man killed, so he estimated 1,100 killed, giving a total of 5,617 casualties for those days. "Union casualties have been grossly exaggerated and probably did not exceed 3,500. Commentators have suggested numbers ranging from 7,500 to well above 12,000, all supposedly incurred during a few terrible minutes after dawn. (In reality the assault sputtered on for about an hour, not an eight minutes some writers have claimed.) The 12,000 estimate in fact reflects the official tally of all casualties for the entire Cold Harbor campaign--12,788, to be exact--embracing the cavalry battles of May 31 and June 1, the 6th and 18th Corps attacks at Cold Harbor on June 1, the 5th and 9th Corps fights around Bethesda Church from June 1 forward, and casualties in all Union corps for the remainder of their stay at Cold Harbor and during their movement across the Chickahominy and James Rivers toward Petersburg. The oft-quoted 7,500 figure derives from attempts by early postwar writers to estimate all Union losses for June 3, a day that included a great deal more fighting than just the grand assault." [Gordon C. Rhea, Cold Harbor, p. 359]
So it seems the assault was less murderous than history implies... It seems my point is made...
 

Al Mackey

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What myth... I was just comparing some of the great assault s of the civil war...

So what options does Grant have...
The casualty figures are a myth, especially the 7,000 in 20 minutes.

Also, it's a myth that Cold Harbor is a sample of Grant's tactics. Grant didn't determine the tactics.
 

Al Mackey

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Grant, as general in chief, was responsible for strategy. George Meade, as commander of the Army of the Potomac, was the one responsible for tactics, and at Cold Harbor Meade and his corps commanders all dropped the ball. "Meade made no pretense of leadership, and his corps and division heads floundered." [Rhea, Cold Harbor, p. 363] More from Rhea: "Grant had ordered the offensive. Meade, however, was responsible for deploying his corps, coordinating their movements, and posting reserves to exploit any gains. 'I had immediate and entire command of the field all day,' Meade wrote his wife. The Pennsylvanian still smarted from the humiliation of his subordinate position and thoroughly disapproved of Grant's hard-hitting, army-wide assaults. Facing a disagreeable assignment, he dealt with it by doing little. The record reveals no steps to reconnoiter the ground, coordinate the army's elements, or tend to the things that diligent generals ordinarily do before sending soldiers against fortified enemy lines." [pp. 318-319]
 

5fish

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The casualty figures are a myth, especially the 7,000 in 20 minutes.

Also, it's a myth that Cold Harbor is a sample of Grant's tactics. Grant didn't determine the tactics.
I saw the causalities figures were all over the place but it can still be ballparked.

I not talking tactics but Grant wanted an assault and Meade did a poor job of planning it...

The armies of Grant's day had limited options when confronting another army... I am pointing out...

History complains about these assault as murder and Grant's Cold Harbor was one of the worst. It was not as the stats come in it may make third worst in lost of life...

The big thing was the first 20 minutes most of the fighting was over. Yes there was still sparse fighting after the 20 minutes...
 

5fish

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He didn't write that in his memoirs. Here's what he wrote: "I have always regretted that the last assault at Cold Harbor was ever made. I might say the same thing of the assault of the 22d of May, 1863, at Vicksburg. At Cold Harbor no advantage whatever was gained to compensate for the heavy loss we sustained. Indeed, the advantages other than those of relative losses, were on the Confederate side." That's Grant himself, not an editor.
I disagree Grant is not going to change his nature on his death bed... No, retracing one's foot steps... His nature...

I do not believe he wrote much of 2 volume of his memoirs... Everyone scared to let a computer tell us the truth..
 

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Thanks for sharing info on this battle. I've been wanting to learn more about it after discovering my Confederate ancestors, William C Thomas (my 4th great grandfather), died on June 1st serving as a Sergeant in the 11th Georgia Infantry. He survived Gettysburg (where his regiment got about a 70% casualty rate), Antietam, and countless other bloody battles, but died after 3 years of services in Cold Harbor.
 

5fish

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Thanks for sharing info on this battle. I've been wanting to learn more about it after discovering my Confederate ancestors, William C Thomas (my 4th great grandfather), died on June 1st serving as a Sergeant in the 11th Georgia Infantry. He survived Gettysburg (where his regiment got about a 70% casualty rate), Antietam, and countless other bloody battles, but died after 3 years of services in Cold Harbor.

Well on June 1, (note) two of my great great uncles were captured and a third was wounded and died a year later. The two captured great great uncle were sent to Elimra, NY prison camp. They both survived the war... The wounded was listed captured but there were no union records of him being capture but I located him buried at the Hollywood cemetery in Richmond under the wrong name. He was list as his brother John who had been captured so James was the buried in the cemetery. I always had an eye on Cold Harbor as well...
 

5fish

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11th Georgia Infantry
My Great Great Uncles were in the 8th NC Infantry regiment Company B... They were part of Clingmans Brigade that was overrun on June 1st 1864...
 

Al Mackey

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I saw the causalities figures were all over the place but it can still be ballparked.

I not talking tactics but Grant wanted an assault and Meade did a poor job of planning it...

The armies of Grant's day had limited options when confronting another army... I am pointing out...

History complains about these assault as murder and Grant's Cold Harbor was one of the worst. It was not as the stats come in it may make third worst in lost of life...

The big thing was the first 20 minutes most of the fighting was over. Yes there was still sparse fighting after the 20 minutes...
Again, the 20 minutes is a myth. The attack lasted an hour.
 

Al Mackey

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I disagree Grant is not going to change his nature on his death bed... No, retracing one's foot steps... His nature...

I do not believe he wrote much of 2 volume of his memoirs... Everyone scared to let a computer tell us the truth..
No one with any credibility agrees with you. The manuscript exists in his handwriting.
 

5fish

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No one with any credibility agrees with you. The manuscript exists in his handwriting.
No the hand written version of the second volume is in his sons handwritting....
 

5fish

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He was to weak to write so they hired stenographer to dictate Grant's words... He dictated in shorthand... The question did his son know shorthand?
 

Al Mackey

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No the hand written version of the second volume is in his sons handwritting....
Incorrect. There is a small portion in his son's handwriting, which is when Grant dictated to his son and his son wrote down what he said. Noble Dawson was a stenographer who also took some dictation from Grant. We have notes to Frederick in Grant's handwriting detailing edits to correct the text.

"The handwritten draft manuscript of the memoir, comprising more than 1,000 pages, is online in its entirety, revealing Grant’s edits and notes inserted by his son Frederick."

https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-17-148/papers-of-ulysses-s-grant-now-online/2017-10-10/

Bruce Catton: "All in all, Grant emerges as a man of letters of real distinction. Go back, again, to his performance in the Memoirs . He wrote this book against pain and death, and he stuck to it as long as he could hold a pencil—not because someone else could not finish the thing for him, thereby assuring his family a proper estate, but simply because as a writing man he wanted the book done his way. No professional author could have written a sturdier declaration of dedication to his craft: 'I do not want a book bearing my name to go before the world which I did not write to such an extent as to be fully entitled to the credit of authorship.' "

https://www.americanheritage.com/us-grant-man-letters

"Though illness continued to interrupt his work, Grant could tell Clemens on May 26 that he had made the book too long by 200 pages. As proofs were received they were read to him; he made revisions, either dictating or writing them. By early June a great part of the Wilderness and Appomattox sections were set in galleys. A prospectus for the book, containing material from the early years to Appomattox, was given to the canvassers on June 8. Grant's son Frederick now acted as chief researcher, checking facts and finding particular letters and dispatches written during the war. Grant's other sons, Ulysses Jr., and Jesse, also helped. This pattern of work continued even after Grant left New York on June 16 to spend the summer at Mount McGregor, New York. The Webster stenographer, Noble E. Dawson, accompanied the family and not only took dictation but helped Frederick Grant in copying and inserting new additions and revisions into the proofs. There were very few days now when Grant could dictate to the stenographer because the cancer in his throat made speaking too painful; instead, using a pencil and a special lap table, he wrote out his new sections and made notes for revisions. Clemens came to Mount McGregor the evening of June 29 and stayed until July 2, during which time Grant wrote the Preface. The first volume was completely set in type, but Grant continued to make last-minute revisions and notes for it until the first week of July. He was also organizing and rewriting the second volume. He was pleased with his revisions of the Appomattox section but felt that he did not have the time to revise the other sections. At one point in a note to his son Frederick, he wrote: 'I should change Sptts. if I was able and could improve N. Ana and Cold Harbor.' He also went over the contents of the Appendix with Frederick. The last two chapters were written at Mount McGregor. By July 10, all of Volume I was in page proofs and ready for the press, and by July 18, the text of Volume II was copied and ready for the printers, except for the documents that sitll had to be inserted, both in the work itself and in the Appendix. Grant died at Mount McGregor on July 23, 1885." [Mary Drake McFeely and William S. McFeely, eds., Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant, Library of America edition, pp. 1165-1166]

We've been on this merry-go-round before. The claim Grant didn't write any portion of his memoirs is complete and utter bull.
 

5fish

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We've been on this merry-go-round before. The claim Grant didn't write any portion of his memoirs is complete and utter bull.
What you cult of Grant believers want to believe Grant wrote volume 2 without help... Note Grant died July 3 1885... here is Dawson words the stenographer...

Link: https://www.granthomepage.com/inttwain.htm

Snip... Volume 2 has not been started until April 1885... he dies in July... that is a lot of words...

At the time I came to work with the General, in April, most of the first volume of the Memoirs was done. This was written almost entirely with his own hand, and only a few corrections were made by him, and these related to the Vicksburg campaign. Very little of the second volume had been written, though he had written some of the Wilderness campaign, in accordance with his arrangement with the Century magazine to write them four articles.

Snip..

After I came he began to dictate, and he continued this as long as he was able to do so. As he went on his voice became weaker and weaker, and toward the last, I had to take my seat very close to his, and he whispered his words in my ear while I took them down in shorthand. His last dictation was on the 22nd of June, 1885.

Snip... he is working 2 hours a day.... first began and only got worst from there... He writing ideas not stories…

After this he would sit with his pad on his knee near me, and would write down his ideas and sometimes doodle. He was very weak, and his hand grew more and more trembling as he neared his death. When I first began, his working hours were from 10 until 12 in the morning. Then in the afternoon, his daughter-in-law, Mrs. Jesse Grant (Elizabeth) would read to him out of the books and refresh his memory, and he would sit with his notebook in hand and make notes.

Snip... read this they lied to him to make him feel to completed his task... again ideas not stories being written down...

The dictation for him was painful and his voice got lower and lower as he went on. At last it was a mere whisper and then it stopped altogether. I shall never forget his joy at the completion of his book. He was so afraid in the last weeks that he couldn't finish it or revise it. In writing his book, he used a yellow manila legal pad with blue lines and he wrote with a pencil. The work tired him very much, and at the end, he was only able to scratch down his ideas. I saw at last that he had reached the end and all he could do was wait for death.

Snip... they are being merciful with to Grant... they could not read the volume 2 to him...

In July, 1885, we were practically at the end, and I said to Fred Grant, "I think we had better tell your father that the book is done." Colonel Fred then told him. At first he hardly realized it, then he was very happy for a short period. He told those around him that his book was finished and he wanted it all read aloud to him. The next day, however, he was not so well, and he never got to the point where we could read aloud to him the second volume. It was only a few days after this that he died.

Snip...

The General spent some of his last days with his daughter, Nellie, and he seemed to want her near him as much as possible as the end approached.

Snip...

After the General's death on July 23 (1885), I hunted up all the slips of paper that the General had written upon and gave them to Colonel Fred and Mrs. Grant, except about a dozen that were written personally to me. Some of these notes relate to his book. Personally, the General was the most delightful and generous man I ever knew. He was always cautious in writing or talking, so as not to injure the feelings of anyone, and I remember many touching incidents of how he cut out sentences which he thought might hurt someone. He was hypersensitive in this regard and often imagined things might hurt someone when they might well have been left in. Had he been able and strong, he would have probably made his Memoirs comprise his whole life, but as it was, he was glad to be able to finish his military career.

Link: https://www.granthomepage.com/grantlaststand.htm

The can read and believe a man in the 19th century without modern pain killers was writing thousands of pages a day... his last three month of life... We are not talking about all the visitors he was getting those last months of his life too... The time line does not hold Grant had two months at best to write volume 2... common sense has to kick in... If I was a guessing man Fred finished the memoir... He did write part of his mother's as well... a thought

The only reason for the merry-go-round is because people do not want to use the common sense...
 
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5fish

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Great Great Uncles
No one notice … My Grandfather was born in 1867... Grandmother 1874... Most people are at least 4 more generations form the civil war...
 

5fish

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This is my next book after my Medieval age reading binge is over...

Grant's Final Victory: Ulysses S. Grant's Heroic Last Year
Charles Bracelen Flood
(November 14, 1929 - August 15, 2014)

I will have to read this book even though I have read a few reviews which imply Grant wrote vol.2 himself... I wonder how much the author goes into how Grant was able to finish his memoirs... the author died in 2014 so we can not ask any questions...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GPSNKI/?tag=civilwartalkc-20
 

5fish

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Computers can save us from the merry-go-round...

Here is an article about Agatha Christe: where a computer study shows her mental decline. I have read where computer can tell if something was more likely written by a woman or a man.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/apr/03/agatha-christie-alzheimers-research

OR-

Here is a book on the topic of Computer analysis of literature works....link...

https://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/nlp.12/main

Literary Detective Work on the Computer
Computational linguistics can be used to uncover mysteries in text which are not always obvious to visual inspection. For example, the computer analysis of writing style can show who might be the true author of a text in cases of disputed authorship or suspected plagiarism. The theoretical background to authorship attribution is presented in a step by step manner, and comprehensive reviews of the field are given in two specialist areas, the writings of William Shakespeare and his contemporaries, and the various writing styles seen in religious texts. The final chapter looks at the progress computers have made in the decipherment of lost languages. This book is written for students and researchers of general linguistics, computational and corpus linguistics, and computer forensics. It will inspire future researchers to study these topics for themselves, and gives sufficient details of the methods and resources to get them started.

Lets put Grant to the test.....
 

jgoodguy

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The first thing to keep in mind is that the casualty figure is an estimate, because the US Army only reported casualty figures for the entire 2 weeks [15 days] of Cold Harbor. Narrowing things down to one day is tough, let alone one short period of time. Andrew A. Humphreys, Meade's Chief of Staff, reported that 4,517 Union wounded arrived in field hospitals on June 3 and 4. The rule of thumb at the time was four men wounded for each man killed, so he estimated 1,100 killed, giving a total of 5,617 casualties for those days. "Union casualties have been grossly exaggerated and probably did not exceed 3,500. Commentators have suggested numbers ranging from 7,500 to well above 12,000, all supposedly incurred during a few terrible minutes after dawn. (In reality the assault sputtered on for about an hour, not an eight minutes some writers have claimed.) The 12,000 estimate in fact reflects the official tally of all casualties for the entire Cold Harbor campaign--12,788, to be exact--embracing the cavalry battles of May 31 and June 1, the 6th and 18th Corps attacks at Cold Harbor on June 1, the 5th and 9th Corps fights around Bethesda Church from June 1 forward, and casualties in all Union corps for the remainder of their stay at Cold Harbor and during their movement across the Chickahominy and James Rivers toward Petersburg. The oft-quoted 7,500 figure derives from attempts by early postwar writers to estimate all Union losses for June 3, a day that included a great deal more fighting than just the grand assault." [Gordon C. Rhea, Cold Harbor, p. 359]
Incorrect. There is a small portion in his son's handwriting, which is when Grant dictated to his son and his son wrote down what he said. Noble Dawson was a stenographer who also took some dictation from Grant. We have notes to Frederick in Grant's handwriting detailing edits to correct the text.

"The handwritten draft manuscript of the memoir, comprising more than 1,000 pages, is online in its entirety, revealing Grant’s edits and notes inserted by his son Frederick."

https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-17-148/papers-of-ulysses-s-grant-now-online/2017-10-10/

Bruce Catton: "All in all, Grant emerges as a man of letters of real distinction. Go back, again, to his performance in the Memoirs . He wrote this book against pain and death, and he stuck to it as long as he could hold a pencil—not because someone else could not finish the thing for him, thereby assuring his family a proper estate, but simply because as a writing man he wanted the book done his way. No professional author could have written a sturdier declaration of dedication to his craft: 'I do not want a book bearing my name to go before the world which I did not write to such an extent as to be fully entitled to the credit of authorship.' "

https://www.americanheritage.com/us-grant-man-letters

"Though illness continued to interrupt his work, Grant could tell Clemens on May 26 that he had made the book too long by 200 pages. As proofs were received they were read to him; he made revisions, either dictating or writing them. By early June a great part of the Wilderness and Appomattox sections were set in galleys. A prospectus for the book, containing material from the early years to Appomattox, was given to the canvassers on June 8. Grant's son Frederick now acted as chief researcher, checking facts and finding particular letters and dispatches written during the war. Grant's other sons, Ulysses Jr., and Jesse, also helped. This pattern of work continued even after Grant left New York on June 16 to spend the summer at Mount McGregor, New York. The Webster stenographer, Noble E. Dawson, accompanied the family and not only took dictation but helped Frederick Grant in copying and inserting new additions and revisions into the proofs. There were very few days now when Grant could dictate to the stenographer because the cancer in his throat made speaking too painful; instead, using a pencil and a special lap table, he wrote out his new sections and made notes for revisions. Clemens came to Mount McGregor the evening of June 29 and stayed until July 2, during which time Grant wrote the Preface. The first volume was completely set in type, but Grant continued to make last-minute revisions and notes for it until the first week of July. He was also organizing and rewriting the second volume. He was pleased with his revisions of the Appomattox section but felt that he did not have the time to revise the other sections. At one point in a note to his son Frederick, he wrote: 'I should change Sptts. if I was able and could improve N. Ana and Cold Harbor.' He also went over the contents of the Appendix with Frederick. The last two chapters were written at Mount McGregor. By July 10, all of Volume I was in page proofs and ready for the press, and by July 18, the text of Volume II was copied and ready for the printers, except for the documents that sitll had to be inserted, both in the work itself and in the Appendix. Grant died at Mount McGregor on July 23, 1885." [Mary Drake McFeely and William S. McFeely, eds., Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant, Library of America edition, pp. 1165-1166]

We've been on this merry-go-round before. The claim Grant didn't write any portion of his memoirs is complete and utter bull.
Thanks, for the detailed info
 
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